RDM's Patch Notes?

[Saito_S]

I'm not saying that over a long enough period of time, RDM couldn't possibly drain out their MP (again, barring when they die or have to res bot). I'm just saying that there aren't really any fights like that in the game, so it doesn't really matter. The vast majority of fights in the game either aren't that long or don't have 100% uptime (allowing for MP recovery). Usually both.

Actually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.

BLM goes through their MP like popcorn, and seeing your MP bar hit zero several times during a fight is expected, and that's FINE, because that's part of how the class is designed, with the whole fire/ice thing, and Flare taking all your MP. You're not "losing" your MP, you're spending it as part of your rotation, and then if you continue to perform properly, you get it back and can go right back to EXPLOSIONS within moments.

With RDM, your MP is going down simply by... playing your class correctly and doing your proper rotation? Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use, and there's nothing you can do about it short of holding your DPS, no class gimmick that goes along with using your MP or way to recover, just kinda sucks. That's why it needed to be changed.

Re: "proving" Lucid's intended design one way or the other - no one here actually KNOWS the minds of the devs with any certainty, of course, but we can use a little common sense. They lowered RDM's MP costs across the board. Why would they do that instead of just saying "working as intended, please use Lucid more" if they DIDN'T intend Lucid to be something with a bit more flexibility, something you can effectively use at certain MP thresholds or hold as a contingency for untimely deaths? If they wanted us to just DEAL with RDM's MP burn by mashing Lucid whenever it's up and basically keeping it on constant CD, they wouldn't have made this change. They would have told us to suck it up.

[SendohJin]

I'm not the one making statements on how the ability was "intended" to be used. Burden of proof is on you, "buddy"

You just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people running into MP issues on RDM were as a result of not riding Lucid.

All I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be seen as a "problem" to have to ride your Lucid cooldown.

[Ardox]

/snip

Dude, 15 minutes was the best estimate in a vaccuum.. You actually can't press LD consistently on CD (And I mean every 59.9 sec here) and each mana tic you lose make your next boosted mana-regen uptic delayed by 3 seconds. It also meant you could never use Vercure or Verraise without impacting your DPS. It also meant LD was more important than Fleche, Contre Sixte, Embolden, Manafication and Acceleration!!! People all over reported problems with running dry with mana.

It is impossible the job was made to rely on LD that much and you implying the contrary is completely inane. Give just one reason why it should have been so?

[Fynlar]

In the end it comes down to this. What are RDM's primary jobs in a endgame party?

It is to deal damage and to provide support for the party in terms of getting dead ppl up quickly to minimize downtime and dps loss.

Could RDM do that in a long EX/Savage fight with the old system? The answer is no they could not. This is why the mp was changed.

rdm's dps is low-mid tier, if they cannot raise or spot emergency heal while maintaining constant dps... They are a completely worthless party spot.

Pretending to go along with you for a bit on the low-mid tier DPS bit because I don't know (or care) about the real hierarchy.

If RDM is "worthless" unless the party is screwing up, that kinda says to me that maybe the job should be getting adjustments other than just mere MP cost reductions which don't actually affect its overall standing in the hierarchy, no? Which is pretty much my point in this thread all along; it's hard for me to be excited over them fixing something that IMO didn't need fixing, while avoiding the real "problem" the class has. (I'm putting massive sarcasm quotes around "problem" because from my point of view, once I've actually learned the fight well enough to not die I've had no discernable "problems" pulling my weight. Surely not the DPS king by any means, but well enough to get the job done in the content I actually bother to do, and certainly not "worthless" as claimed.)

Actually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.

Again, healers can sometimes run out of MP too, particularly if they are having to spam raises or they forget Lucid. That isn't a "design flaw", that's just the nature of MP usage. If your MP on RDM is "dropping like a rock", you... are having to spam raises or you're forgetting Lucid. Same deal.

Your hypotheticals of "if this WERE a long fight" don't matter; what matters is if there actually ARE any long fights.

Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use,

That was never the case for me on RDM. Clearly I'm not the only one, or else this topic wouldn't have gotten made.

You just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".

It really isn't, but okay.

[Ardox]

Again, healers can sometimes run out of MP too, particularly if they are having to spam raises or they forget Lucid..

Healers have personnal MP management tools like Lightspeed and Thin Air or way to do their job that don't need MP like lilies and Aetherflow. Also RDM was problem without using raises. Even casual trials and raid bosses have long enough fight for MP drain to be a problem and even more so if the fight drags on because a bad PUG group even if you don't need to use raise or cure during those long fight

I don't know what you did for having absolutely no MP issues except hardcasting veraero/thunder and clipping your GCD to be sure LD stay on cooldown

[CorbinDallas]

Healers have personnal MP management tools like Lightspeed and Thin Air or way to do their job that don't need MP like lilies and Aetherflow. Also RDM was problem without spamming raises. Even casual trials and raid bosses have long enough fight for MP drain to be a problem is the fight drags on because a bad PUG group even if you don't need to use raise or cure during those long fight

I don't know what you did for having absolutely no MP issues except hardcasting veraero/thunder and clipping your GCD to be sure LD stay on cooldown

No you don't understand. You (and by extension everyone else who agrees with you) are wrong, because Fynlar didn't have this issue and puts feeling before fact. Don't try to convince him otherwise, it falls on deaf ears.

[Enla]

Thing is RDM has lower DPS /because/ it's classified as partial support. It's quick raise is a part of it's utility and just like every other heavily support based DPS job the numbers it puts out reflect this reality. Thus having the job be heavily punished for even just performing one raise makes little to no sense. Having a situation where /two/ raises put you in a situation where you need to actively start altering your rotation is unacceptable on top of that. If using Lucid on cooldown provides no tangible effect aside from running out of MP slower then the job's MP consumption is poorly tuned and was rightly changed to reflect it. A job should not be in an MP deficit for using part of it's utility or heaven forbid from one death. Not even healers are ever in a situation where dying once dramatically alters their performance.

I was in a situation when E4 came out where both healers died constantly and I legitimately had to resort to auto-attacking and using my no-MP melee moves to do damage because I could not make my mana back to start my proper rotation. I don't mind RDM losing some of it's rezbot utility, but so long as we have the ability to raise there should /never/ be a situation where a player legitimately could not make back their mana even after people start getting their act together. And yes, I was using Lucid every chance it came up. It didn't help me get back to a position where I could reliably DPS for the rest of the run and my numbers tanked as a result. I don't foresee that being an issue now.

[Scryar]

I wish they would just put a 1min Cd on verraise and get over with it. RDM is in the same spot now as in stormblood before the damage buffs. It has garbage dps, because of the possibility to rezz several people in a row, which is highly overrated imo. Healers have an instant rezz on a 1 min Cd which is usually more than enough. If you need to rezz several people in a row, you will fail the boss anyway due to lack of people for mechanics or the dps check. It's pretty telling that the so called "progression" job is less popular during progression (if we look at fflogs) than the other casters. Once savage is on farm, rdm will be completely excluded again. New addon, same story. They realised this in stormblood, so they bumped rdm's dps to be in the middle of the damagers in stormblood. Currently we are 3rd last in pdps and 2nd last in rdps. With BLm being king in both, there is zero reason to ever take a rdm instead. (with blm having so many movement tools, this isn't even a significant argument for movement heavy fights anymore)

[TalithaSolarien]

I wish they would just put a 1min Cd on verraise and get over with it. RDM is in the same spot now as in stormblood before the damage buffs. It has garbage dps, because of the possibility to rezz several people in a row, which is highly overrated imo. Healers have an instant rezz on a 1 min Cd which is usually more than enough. If you need to rezz several people in a row, you will fail the boss anyway due to lack of people for mechanics or the dps check. It's pretty telling that the so called "progression" job is less popular during progression (if we look at fflogs) than the other casters. Once savage is on farm, rdm will be completely excluded again. New addon, same story. They realised this in stormblood, so they bumped rdm's dps to be in the middle of the damagers in stormblood. Currently we are 3rd last in pdps and 2nd last in rdps. With BLm being king in both, there is zero reason to ever take a rdm instead. (with blm having so many movement tools, this isn't even a significant argument for movement heavy fights anymore)

If Savage content is the only stick you are using to measure RDM's against you are probably right. But there is more then enough content in the game for other challenges where the class comes in handy. Take for example Eureka, which only was bearable because there were so many RDM's in the zone (I know they added logos actions for Raising later but they were rarely used due to restrictions of the logos system).

I think the class is in a perfect spot right now.

[Fynlar]

Honestly tho, why are you still carrying on with this then? It's been clearly explained to you a dozen times over.

Because people are here saying RDM had MP problems and I'm sitting here thinking, no it didn't, it only did when it had to raise a bunch. Healers have MP problems too when they have to raise a bunch. That's not really a legitimate cause for concern.

A job should not be in an MP deficit for using part of it's utility or heaven forbid from one death. Not even healers are ever in a situation where dying once dramatically alters their performance.

You're right, it shouldn't be, and it wasn't. Having to throw out one raise has never killed me on RDM, just like it hasn't killed me on any healer.

I was in a situation when E4 came out where both healers died constantly and I legitimately had to resort to auto-attacking and using my no-MP melee moves to do damage because I could not make my mana back to start my proper rotation.

Because you had to raise a bunch, yes?

Guess what, that'll still happen today even after these changes if you get a bad party like that.

The simple fact of the matter that I don't think some want to come to terms with is that if you were not running out of MP before, even in normal dungeons, I'm talking like 50/60/70 roulette and much of the 51-80 dungeons (maybe not so much like Auram Vale and before since the fights are shorter), then at least one of two things were going on. Either they were not using their abilities as quickly as they could, or their latency is high enough to prevent their casting as soon as they were able to.

Yeah, sorry, that's wrong too. My "latency" is fine and my casts are going off as they should be according to the gcd.

Of course, no one is going to ever admit that in this sort of discussion that they are using their abilities in a less than optimum way. In fact they're likely to think they are playing just as well as anyone else. Though the polite thing to do, unless we have evidence to the contrary, is to take them at face value. They didn't have MP issues. They played the best they could, didn't have MP issues, and I'm going to choose to believe for their sake that its a connection issue they are not really aware of.

It makes the best sense, and allows the discussion on that to be resolved. They're free to think whatever they wish. But the rest of us simply know better.

Just like how you just "know" whether or not people are playing with a controller, right?