Patch 5.05 DPS balance discussion Nin+Dnc

[Carstien]

I believe the problem here is that buffing them too much might make them too strong. With utility they shouldn't add up to the same rdps as lower utility jobs because history has shown that they will just be favoured if they come too close. When it comes to identical rdps from a selfish player or one buffing the group, a group will almost always opt for the buff.

Also all ranged physical are lower than melee and casting counterparts, and I think it's in part because of complete freedom of movement and the strong defensive utility. That being said ninja and dancer do need some buffs, potencies and qol at least. Flourishes should last longer to account for saber dances and reapplied standard steps.

[Dogempire]

When I am running at 90%+ and I see other classes performing worst but contributing more, its just not a good feeling I guess?

That pretty much sums up how I feel about playing dancer, even though it's meant to be a support class the fact that you can't outdps a mediocre samurai or blm even when you're playing much more optimally is just kind of depressing.

[TaiyouSeishin]

I believe the problem here is that buffing them too much might make them too strong. With utility they shouldn't add up to the same rdps as lower utility jobs because history has shown that they will just be favoured if they come too close. When it comes to identical rdps from a selfish player or one buffing the group, a group will almost always opt for the buff.

Also all ranged physical are lower than melee and casting counterparts, and I think it's in part because of complete freedom of movement and the strong defensive utility. That being said ninja and dancer do need some buffs, potencies and qol at least. Flourishes should last longer to account for saber dances and reapplied standard steps.

Problem comes from the type of utility. Things like TA are a dps utility, but if that utility doesnt even let you break even it dont work. Its why some NIN advocate to get rid of it. If WITH the debuff you still do less damage its utility is useless other than superficial padding. Maybe of TA only benefited certain types of damage or something.

DNC rdps looks to be good, cept they still dont break even either. Some small tweaks to pdps wpuld be wonderful for them. Ninja, just needs to lose the support stuff. TA as it is right now, is useless.

[Quor]

I don't know where this belief about a DNC dps issue comes from. My Eden normal runs today I was pushing between 8.5 and 9k personal dps.

[Tenryou]

So i keep reading/hearing people talk about trick attack like it's some end all be all, but it's not. If the party is not doing its huge damage burn inside the window it's basically a solo dmg buff for ninja. Also i can't say much for the difficult of dnc as a class be i tend to consistently lose in personal dps to dncs of equal gear and skill level despite the fact their party buff are way more useful than mine.

Opener is fine you do damage equal to other people then it's like trying to swim up stream against a current. Every little thing you do after this has to be perfect or you lose dps for it and that's not even talking about when you have to move off a boss while everyone else is hitting it. Yeah other classes have their struggles since everyone seems to keep bringing them up but as far as personal dps goes ninja is basically the "why do you even exist" class atm because it's so much effort put in for so little reward to try to sustain any decent dps only to hear people treat the class like its only good for one thing. I dont know about anyone else but i wanna compete on my class not be the cheerleader or team mascot that gets carried.

[Seraphor]

Maybe of TA only benefited certain types of damage or something.

Debuffs that enhance only one type of damage... hm...

[Darkstride]

Maybe of TA only benefited certain types of damage or something.

If Trick Attack is going to remain as the signature of Ninja (I doubt it will ever be removed), then it should just be more beneficial to the job directly to supplement its utility. The easiest solution would to just give the Ninja an added buff when it is applied, or have it apply a heavy bleed DoT to help sustain personal DPS.

I think a more interesting approach would be if they made an alteration. I would rename the current TA to Sneak Attack (keep it the same, it has a rear positional and requires "hide"/Suiton as the name implies), and once used have it change to Trick Attack. Trick Attack would then be a follow-up that gives the NIN a personal dps buff. This could be used during the SA window for added burst, or at the end to essentially extend your own burst window if you want to chain together all of your heavy hitters (Kassatsu, TCJ, Bunshin).

Otherwise, if they aren't going to improve DPS, then Ninja needs more utility than one attack. Yes, Trick Attack is great utility, but Ninja is being punished as if it's a support job when it doesn't play like one.

[Akava]

I'm actually surprised to see comments from people saying that selfish DPS should have equal or more rDPS than utility DPS. Let's take NIN as an example since it's one I think a lot of people want to focus on.

If you stack a NIN next to a SAM, the SAM should crush the NIN in pDPS. However, the NIN should crush the SAM in rDPS IF the rest of the party maximizes Trick Attack timings. That's the thing about utility. It only shines if the other 7 people make the most out of it. It takes planning and coordination to effectively pull off something like that. The more utility a job has, the more it relies on other people to be as effective. This should be rewarded.

Now, I know that sounds terrifying to a selfish DPS because they don't want to become a bench warmer. Trust me when I say I understand that. I was a SAM main all of Stormblood and despite consistently towering other DPS in terms of damage output, I still got asked numerous times in PUGs if I could switch to a job that "helped the party more".

All that being said, I firmly believe that in terms of DPS, if the job had to trade personal dps for utility, that trade off should be worth it. Right now, for several jobs that's not the case and they need help.

Dancer and Ninja need help the most at the moment.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Sadly when it comes to balance there will always be a Meta. There will always be a best pick. Even if you got rid of all utility and made everyone selfish dps someone is going to pull ahead and be top pick.

Trick attack, standard finish, battle voice, etc, these are all dps utilities. They are not meant to "even" things out. You take that ninja, dnc, etc taking a consistency dps loss (they do less than their selfish dps counterparts) for the POSSIBILITY to do more as a raid as a whole (provided they fully utilize the window that their respective utilities provide. If these abilities "break even" or not even do that, why even have the utility.

"Hey lets take this ninja, he may do less dps, but at least the raid as a whole with trick attack... also do less dps... tho our individual numbers will look good *thumbs up*"

Or maybe we are a difficulty supplement. "Hey lets do MORE work cuz of this ninja just to clear things at the same speed."

[ForteNightshade]

I viewed Blm and Drg to be the 2 most over tuned of the DPS and prob needed nerfs.

I am getting really tired of this nonsense. Dragoon does not need a nerf. It currently does less rDPS and pDPS than Monk. Why in the hell would it be nerfed? Black Mage you can make a case because it's pulling over 500 rDPS ahead of Summoner, and nearly double that against Red Mage. Dragoon though? No.