Thread: RIP Ninja - 5.05

Originally Posted by Alistaire

Basically it's a stronger attack at the expense of a longer gcd cooldown. Perfect for doing right before a 3-part ninjutsu without clipping.

Actually yes. This makes so much sense. asix sided star type move would work so fluidly with our kit. You could use it before TCJ, before a triple weave mudra, and when having to jump away from the boss to dodge. This is a buff/skill that would do so much for us.

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Dumbing down TCJ could never amount to that, cause for some stupid reason literally everyone on this forum think class difficulty shouldn't be correlated with class potential damage at all. They argue this all the time so NIN and the other difficult classes don't get buffed. That logic has to go two ways. Dumbing down TCJ is absolutely no reason to reduce its potency. We are the highest punished class for latency, ping, deaths, bunnies, clipping, in the game. The class is complex enough to warrant being given movement during TCJ

There are a couple options tho.

1: keep TCJ movement locked, remove the need to cast ninjutsu, Cast on mudra input, push each mudra CD to 1 instead of .5. This cuts out 1.5 seconds so its a little less punishing, and is a slight buff wrapped in one.
2: Make it like leylines, It remains there for a duration and if the ninjutsu are cast inside it they do the full 150% bonus, if cast outside they get only a 50% bonus. Inspiring attempts to stay inside, but less punishment if you have to move.
3: Completely free up TCJ movement and keep it as is, remove Bunny from its cast so that latency spikes and lag as you enter TCJ are less likely to F you over.

And for those that have some weird kinda fetish love with the immobility that TCJ forces, Why the heck? We are NINs... being animation locked by Assassinate is more than enough immobility in cumulus for a class that is stylistically defined by agility, and has the most positional requirements now that Earths reply is a thing.

all these are good ideas except We need TCJ to be Mobile Ability Because its Horrible to Use if you press it in any savage fights you lose dps because your forced to finish your 3 jutsu instead of doing just 1.
TCJ Has A spike Latency (Lag) Check sometimes (90%) it will lag a bit at start with animation then you gotta finish it. so your combos lacking damage
If it was made like Kassatsu it would be Better to keep it mobile and it'll be 1 move and won't interrupt your Rotation and Ninja is bad spot , LB, TCJ, Death or Bunny will Cost your WHOLE ROTATION. Making you quickly lose alot of damage.

while mnk /drg can lb not lose pace off their whole rotation.

I wish Ninja was in a better spot at personal DPS... but they have also been one of the most problematic jobs. Since thier inception NIN basically always had a reservation it feels like in every PF to where you basically almost had to make room for one no matter what because of Trick/Shadewalker. It limited the melee DPS roles to only allow 1 other job, which 90% of the time was DRG because you likely had a BRD and they demanded a DRG. This left MNK/SAM out in the cold for no reason besides DRG being mandatory for the most played DPS job in the game (BRD) and Ninja just being too important for Tanks to keep hate so they could have proper openers. The concern is that if Ninja is buffed too much, because you guys have Trick Attack you will just become a mandatory slot in the melee DPS again forcing another lack of variety in party composition. I want Ninja to be carefully looked at, and I do mean carefully. You guys definately need buffs, but too much and you could be screwing over all other melee DPS.

Ideally, I think NIN should be like 1-1.5K DPS lower then MNK/DRG/SAM since that's about how much Trick Attack contributes to raid DPS on average.

Right now it's closer to 3K DPS lower hence why they suck even with Trick Attack being a factor.

Originally Posted by KageTokage

Ideally, I think NIN should be like 1-1.5K DPS lower then MNK/DRG/SAM since that's about how much Trick Attack contributes to raid DPS on average.

Right now it's closer to 3K DPS lower hence why they suck even with Trick Attack being a factor.

You forget the utility mnk and drg hold..

If balance was done as we see with other classes with fairness and rdps valued for its contribution the line up would be.

SAM highest pDPS best rDPS 50th percentile and down.
DRG next highest pDPS best rDPS 50th to 75th percentile
NIN and MNK lowest pDPS. NIN highest rDPS 75th percentiles up as his buff is the largest and thus most variant.
MNK higher rDPS than SAM at 50th percentile up, but lower than NIN and DRG because of mantra.

The game will never ne perfectly balanced. But that would theoretically be the best balance where every class felt valued. SAM would be the best prog and casual melee with MNK for mantra. DRG and SAM would or MNK DRG would be the best mid tier, and NIN +SAM would be the meta for speed running and speed running alone. But all would be extremely viable at any skill lvl.

SAM woyld be the most common potentially cause its valuable at all levels with above in mind

Also trick only contributes 1k even at very high end play typically. 1.5k is very much an overestimate right now.

Its generally between 500 and 1k. 500 being pug or missed trick. 1 k being the static group.

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

I wish Ninja was in a better spot at personal DPS... but they have also been one of the most problematic jobs. Since thier inception NIN basically always had a reservation it feels like in every PF to where you basically almost had to make room for one no matter what because of Trick/Shadewalker. It limited the melee DPS roles to only allow 1 other job, which 90% of the time was DRG because you likely had a BRD and they demanded a DRG. This left MNK/SAM out in the cold for no reason besides DRG being mandatory for the most played DPS job in the game (BRD) and Ninja just being too important for Tanks to keep hate so they could have proper openers. The concern is that if Ninja is buffed too much, because you guys have Trick Attack you will just become a mandatory slot in the melee DPS again forcing another lack of variety in party composition. I want Ninja to be carefully looked at, and I do mean carefully. You guys definately need buffs, but too much and you could be screwing over all other melee DPS.

I do agree with this, and it is yet another reason I want TA gutted so we're not mandatory because of one ability. We need it removed or nerfed to 5%, and be compensated by being much closer with the other melee dps.

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

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While you dont want to make something way too good comparatively, at the same time you dont wamt to short change. The issue is that people echo whatever the meta is. "We need a ninja" "why?" "For tick attack". Im almost willing to bet that a lot of those pf groups that wanted a nin that was meta did less dps than they would have with another melee. You dont just put trick on the boss and boom raid is WAY stronger, no they have to sync up.

No matter what, SOMEONE will crunch rhe numbers and fine what is best dps wise, there will NEVER be a time where someone wont min-max and determine what is meta.

Nin needs to be carefully looked at? Not really, look at its max rdps from trick, is it 1000? Make a nin like 700 or 800 behind. In a well coordinated static TA is a benefit, in a pug, they still do way less dps than another melee.

Or if it needs to be that carefully looked at, SE then has officially created a stigma with NIN being meta, so get shift what its utility is and buff its damage, because if ninja was 2k dps behind everyone else, and they do 2 rdps more than the next melee (not even top) someone will go "ITS NOT BALANCED"

Originally Posted by Laur1x

I do agree with this, and it is yet another reason I want TA gutted so we're not mandatory because of one ability. We need it removed or nerfed to 5%, and be compensated by being much closer with the other melee dps.

I say remove it completely or make it a self buff only. Reducing its effectiveness will not solve the overall ninja problem.