Unpopular Opinion: Dungeon design has been bad for a long time

[Alucard135]

While the aesthetics of the dungeons is wonderful, every single one boils down to the exact same formula.

Long hallway, aoe pull / open area, long hall way, aoe pull / open area, boss. Repeat 3 - 4x.

That's it. There's no variation, no patrols, no choices. I get SO bored doing dungeons after the first few times.

I made a thread last month about the lack of challenge in this game, and dungeons are another example of that. If my only challenge is Savage raids, that's just piss poor design. I want to get behind my character and feel the impact of their level growth, but getting new dungeon gear and levels is almost meaningless now.

Why can't we have leveling content that has SOME level of challenge?

You're not the only who gets bored to death from the dungeons we have. That's why Anima was a nightmare to me. But there are a lot that like that style of dungeons. So they're not gonna change from that.

BA was an excellent change from that style imo and hopefully we get more content like that.

[Enla]

To be fair, even when they gave us choices the community ended up settling for the 'right way' to do things. Toto-Rak comes to mind as a dungeon with a couple paths and places to explore, but if you so much as go the 'wrong way' in there it can lead to a fight. If they're going to allow us more freedom with dungeons they're going to have to ensure that the choices are all of equal merit - but even then people will doubtless decide that one route is better.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

To be fair, even when they gave us choices the community ended up settling for the 'right way' to do things. Toto-Rak comes to mind as a dungeon with a couple paths and places to explore, but if you so much as go the 'wrong way' in there it can lead to a fight. If they're going to allow us more freedom with dungeons they're going to have to ensure that the choices are all of equal merit - but even then people will doubtless decide that one route is better.

It doesn't even need to be pathing freedom though. Just including mobs that have to be interrupted or CC'd, or else things get hairy fast, would be appreciated.

Some of the mobs in ShB try to do that. Namely the reptoids with dmg up buffs in Twinning and the things in Gulg and Anyder that do raidwide AoE's, but none of them are things healers can't override with a modicum of extra effort.

Because the MSQ is a/ the reason for many people to play FFXIV and Square Enix doesn't want to gate the story behind too much difficulty. And since dungeons are part of it, they're mostly tuned in a way that even four bad players are mostly able to clear them. The more good players in a group, the faster the clear.

... I've seen several people state on various occasions that they have no interest in more tactically challenging leveling dungeons. They like to breeze through.

Sure, keep anything MSQ required EZ-PZ, but I don't see why optional 4-man content can't be made more involved.

[Wanzzo]

To be fair, even when they gave us choices the community ended up settling for the 'right way' to do things. Toto-Rak comes to mind as a dungeon with a couple paths and places to explore, but if you so much as go the 'wrong way' in there it can lead to a fight. If they're going to allow us more freedom with dungeons they're going to have to ensure that the choices are all of equal merit - but even then people will doubtless decide that one route is better.

I remember a Letter from the producer back then reffering to something like that.
Sastasha have a big room with 5 smaller rooms that NO ONE nowadays enter. Because it's "the wrong way". All the five expands the immersion by adding people kidnapped by pirates and sahagins, two groups of pirates fighting each other for some ale, idle pirates waiting for duties, etc. These elements don't matter when all people want is the xp from the roulette.

I think the best way do to dungeons in this game is with a fixed group of friends with same pace and goals (which is rare as crystals of Light).

So, the way for them to fix the problem is by adding variety inside new dungeons to come. Maybe some interactions during combat, like pressing some switches at the same time, more complexity in the AI behavior of the mobs, patrols, traps and other ways to reach the same place.

But I agree. All dungeons seems repeting the same formulae and build despite the gourgeousness of the environment :3

[Rilifane]

Why can't we have leveling content that has SOME level of challenge?

Because the MSQ is a/ the reason for many people to play FFXIV and Square Enix doesn't want to gate the story behind too much difficulty. And since dungeons are part of it, they're mostly tuned in a way that even four bad players are mostly able to clear them. The more good players in a group, the faster the clear.
I don't agree with this sort of philosophy and I don't think it's doing the player community any favors but that is what they've been sticking to so far.

Overall I'd prefer shorter dungeons but with more tactically challenging mob groups where the way when and how you pull which group exactly and cc has an impact.
That means more dmg output overall so you can't pull big, adding non-ccable highly dangerous mobs to many groups which buff/ heal others or channel something really nasty and are priority targets so you don't just aoe everything down, mobs fleeing at low health into the nearest pack so you have to intercept or deal with the consequences of an accidental second pull and adding ccable highly annoying/dangerous mobs (escp. enemy healers etc) that should be cc'ed if possible, otherwise focused down.
So the overall time spent in dungeons wouldn't change that much but it would include more tactical gameplay.

But that's just my preference, I've seen several people state on various occasions that they have no interest in more tactically challenging leveling dungeons. They like to breeze through.

[Neri]

We had, it was called Pharos Sirius, not anymore though, due to reason.

[TheMightyMollusk]

The problem with offering options is that people will go straight for the path of least resistance. Unless there's some kind of incredible reward for it, but then people who already have it won't want to bother doing it again, so anyone who's late to the party is screwed.

[HWalsh]

The problem with offering options is that people will go straight for the path of least resistance. Unless there's some kind of incredible reward for it, but then people who already have it won't want to bother doing it again, so anyone who's late to the party is screwed.

There is a solution to this -

Add in a new dungeon type (you just need one) that is needed only once in the MSQ.

Dynamic Dungeons -

You create a stone fortress - You create 25 generic rooms - then 25 types of hallways - With 10 or so boss chambers.

Populate these with special bosses (or even Primals)

Give the rooms different mechanics as part of their design.

Each boss room terminates in a zone as you go deeper into the dungeon.

Each floor is procedurally generated.

You don't know the right path, or what rooms you'll encounter, you can have patrols and such here. Adjust the enemies to the group level for challenge.

Go nuts.

It would only need to be created once and could provide a bunch of replay value. As each expansion or update comes out tack on a new room or new boss or new couple of hallways.

Not complicated, well within the technological limitations of the current engine, and provides a varied game play element.

Remember:
Procedural generation of dungeons like this was first created by Richard Garriot in the PC game Akalabeth back in 1979. So if we could do it in '79 I'm sure we could do it in 2019 without too much fuss.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

There is a solution to this -

Add in a new dungeon type (you just need one) that is needed only once in the MSQ.

Dynamic Dungeons -

You create a stone fortress - You create 25 generic rooms - then 25 types of hallways - With 10 or so boss chambers.

Populate these with special bosses (or even Primals)

Give the rooms different mechanics as part of their design.

Each boss room terminates in a zone as you go deeper into the dungeon.

Each floor is procedurally generated.

You don't know the right path, or what rooms you'll encounter, you can have patrols and such here. Adjust the enemies to the group level for challenge.

Go nuts.

It would only need to be created once and could provide a bunch of replay value. As each expansion or update comes out tack on a new room or new boss or new couple of hallways.

Not complicated, well within the technological limitations of the current engine, and provides a varied game play element.

Remember:
Procedural generation of dungeons like this was first created by Richard Garriot in the PC game Akalabeth back in 1979. So if we could do it in '79 I'm sure we could do it in 2019 without too much fuss.

Isn't that Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High?

[Hawklaser]

Isn't that Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High?

Sort of. The problem with PoD and HoH, is they are not quite balanced the same as a normal dungeon. PoD and HoH are balanced around the possibilty of the group being all tanks, or all healers, or all DPS. So they kinda end up meh after a bit, now if they actually took an actual well put together party? That could be a totally different story. As I thought I would be for PoD/HoH, until I played them a few times and found how devoid of challenge they were in a group once you started getting a few upgrades to your PoD/HoH gear, as they were pretty much just run about and kill things until the next floor opened up, rinse an repeat until the boss.