Not sure what is going on in the expert dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

Almost all my tank deaths have come from knowing that a tank has invuln, them doing everything you'd expect from a tank about to pop invuln (zero mitigation in a mass pull, not moving out of the latest AoEs to appear on them, etc.), and then not popping invuln. After having pulled 12 mobs without mitigation, against which I cannot sustain regardless of my actions, they usually start swearing at me for having kept them alive 7 seconds longer than would otherwise be possible via oGCDs and Holy spam rather than spamming Cure II for 10% of their HP each GCD while they lose 25% per second.

[Soraki-Muppe]

If I die during a big pull due to the healer not healing, I will stop pulling big. And if said healer still want big pulls and runs to pull more themselves, let us just say I can find something less annoying to do for 30min.

However, from my experience most healers do their job. What I have run into more are dps that does not know what aoe is.

[Gula]

I've always had healers prefer to DPS than heal me, even back in previous expansions. Tanks are blue DPS and healers are green DPS, or so I've been told. I guess because DPSing is easier than actually doing what their role is supposed to be.

As WHM, it pretty much is. Slap on a regen and throw rocks or give really menacing looks. With Lilies, ya just pop one of those for that sweet sensation of a DPS climax when its ready.

[Lannybaby]

Believe it or not, it's very doable to keep dps alive as long as the number of monsters is not so many (3-4 or so, depending on hp and overall damage dealt by monsters). In my experience, even during 3.x, healers go on a sort of super saiyan survival instinct mode when the tank dies. This is because they don't want a complete wipe. If they can gauge that there's a chance a complete wipe can be evaded by healing the surviving dps through the ordeal, they will do it. Otherwise, they'll just suicide so the party can retry properly. While the tank is alive, they know they can dps and just throw out a heal or three so the tank doesn't die; they're in an "idgaf" mode, so to speak.

[Hawklaser]

It probably has to do with the odd skill gap between good and bad players. You get the good healers that know how to weave in dps as appropriate, then you get the bad ones that just blindly mimic what the good ones do without understanding or realizing how the good ones manage to get in the dps they do. As a healer, I see a bit of this coming from tanks too. I can usually pick up on which tanks are good vs which ones are bad pretty quick in a dungeon. The bad tanks see some of the skilled people get away without popping many cool downs due to vastly out gearing old content and later emulate that and fail, the good tanks know that the skilled person was being lazy and understand why they got away with it. Much like how good healers know why Sch's can get away with focusing a bit more on dps and let the fairy do a bulk of the healing once they reach a certain skill and gear level, the bad healers just copy that without understanding why it works.

Eventually I'll get the fun of seeing this from the tank side, slowly working on learning and leveling War up. As Sch just isn't the same anymore, maybe 5.05 might help, but I doubt it... and Ast isn't doing much better and Whm never appealed that much to me.

[Hezzlocks]

Yeah, I know why it exists, but I really want that green dps mentality to die a horrible death. It's perfectly fine, encouraged in fact, for a healer to dps when there's no healing needed, but healing should be the top priority. Outside of savage progression and ultimate, healer dps isn't even needed, it's just a nice bonus for groups playing well.

Of course is Squeenix ever decides to make healing a more challenging experience where healers will need to focus more on topping people up instead of just dps and use oGCD heals to get people just healthy enough to survive the next unavoidable damage burst, the transitory period will be VERY rough, since most healers are stuck in this all encompassing must dps at all times attitude.

[chidarake]

Yeah, I know why it exists, but I really want that green dps mentality to die a horrible death. It's perfectly fine, encouraged in fact, for a healer to dps when there's no healing needed, but healing should be the top priority. Outside of savage progression and ultimate, healer dps isn't even needed, it's just a nice bonus for groups playing well.

Of course is Squeenix ever decides to make healing a more challenging experience where healers will need to focus more on topping people up instead of just dps and use oGCD heals to get people just healthy enough to survive the next unavoidable damage burst, the transitory period will be VERY rough, since most healers are stuck in this all encompassing must dps at all times attitude.

there is no reason why healers shouldnt dps and regardless of how SE changes the game nothing short of removal of all dps skills for healers will stop the mentality of just enough to survive is all that matters as its true.


ive healed a lot in this game but mainly dungeons as i dps raids/extremes and i will cast extra heals to make sure people dont die if i think its needed but regardless on whether everyone is full health or not you cant keep everyone alive on healer in big pulls if the tanks arent mitigating as much as possible while dpsing and dodging and the dps arent straight up killing everything in the shortest time they can manage.

some of the bigger pulls in the expert dungeons are tricky to heal the first couple of times but once you have a plan on how to heal them then weaving in dps isnt an issue atleast on whm, ast seems odd right now you dont have as many options as a whm and dpsing outside lightspeed seems dangerous but you are constantly boosting party dps via cards so ast might have low numbers if you parse but the grp should have higher than normal numbers.

i cant comment on sch right now as im only level 71.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, I know why it exists, but I really want that green dps mentality to die a horrible death. It's perfectly fine, encouraged in fact, for a healer to dps when there's no healing needed, but healing should be the top priority. Outside of savage progression and ultimate, healer dps isn't even needed, it's just a nice bonus for groups playing well.

Of course is Squeenix ever decides to make healing a more challenging experience where healers will need to focus more on topping people up instead of just dps and use oGCD heals to get people just healthy enough to survive the next unavoidable damage burst, the transitory period will be VERY rough, since most healers are stuck in this all encompassing must dps at all times attitude.

We've seen no proof that they will ever "make healing a more challenging experience" and their only trends thus far have been to make healer DPS easier with each expansion.

And within any given GCD outside of emergencies, DPS should be the priority, not healing. There are no immediate unmarked two-shots in this game avoidable only by precasting or oGCDs; there's nothing to hold your attention in anticipation of.

Thus, healing ends up much like enmity (if enmity also had massive oGCD boosts via CDs that were largely wasted in held); you need only a maintain a certain margin (1 or more HP) while maximizing damage. The only further limitation is that HP is capped while enmity is not. Prioritizing healing for unnecessarily immediate or GCD-based response therefore reduces the output over time of your healing abilities (not Spells, Abilities -- oGCDs). Given how scripted fights are, a schedule-according-to-dps mentality often tends to create simpler and more reliable responses to mechanics for the healing, as well.

You have one output which is uncapped but for which time opportunities for optimization are far more narrowly defined, and another which is capped but with less defined opportunities for optimization so long as its abilities are being used on CD. Prioritize by the stricter one and flesh out the other as needed, leaving space for your oGCDs.

[Hezzlocks]

there is no reason why healers shouldnt dps and regardless of how SE changes the game nothing short of removal of all dps skills for healers will stop the mentality of just enough to survive is all that matters as its true.

Which would be fair enough if you didn't have so many healers pushing the heal as late as possible all for the sake of a couple of extra attacks. The best healers can pull it off but there are a lot of less capable healers who try to emulate those best healers and fail spectacularly on fights where those extra attacks won't really matter at all.

I don't want healers to never dps, it's fine if they do, so long as they remember to heal when it's needed. I just want the mentality of do as much dps as possible and only heal when its absolutely required to die.

And, for the record, making incoming damage more erratic and unpredictable is one such change they could make to cause healers to keep everyone healthy. It's likely not the only change but it's the most obvious one. The only reason why healers are able to get away with these last second healing shenanigans is because damage is very predictable, and if the DPS position correctly they only ever get hurt by the occasional unavoidable party wide damage burst every boss has that has a long cast time so even if you haven't memorized the attack pattern yet you can still see the boss doing it.

[Jollyy5]

I started levelling SCH from 70 to 80 begrudgingly, and ended up letting the tank die during a big pull in the level 71 dungeon due to trying to DPS.

I'm not sure if they were using their cooldowns properly or not, but I still blamed myself because I'm not used to the fairy heals being absolute garbage to a point where I can't trust the fairy to keep the tank alive anymore, not to mention that I can no longer use fairy abilities while casting other things and the fact that I will sometimes not have the desired amount of Aetherflow stacks because SE decided to prevent Aetherflow usage outside of combat for no f*cking reason.

You could blame me for letting you die, and you wouldn't be wrong, but I'd still blame SE for gutting Scholars like they did.