Customizable pronouns

[Mezzoforte]

Yeah, that didn’t work out so well did it. It’s at best ignorant and, at worst, callous of you to assume ALL non conforming identities are equal. No one has said that here. This conversation is about non-binary, so gender NEUTRAL, not rabies gender or other true nonsense.

The way it works is yesterdays "true nonsense" is today's "legitimate claim." The problem is who decides what is or isn't legitimate because ultimately one person's "legitimate claim" is another person's "true nonsense." Are you saying that you yourself dictates these terms or that these terms should be dictated by mob rule? The best way to avoid it is just to not bother with any of it in the first place otherwise you do turn it into a more slippery slope than it already is.

[Doozer]

The way people in this thread approach and treat just the very concept of nonbinary people make me really reluctant to post here anymore. To be told "hm yeah your gender is [this] but I see you as [that] so that's what I'm going to call you so there" and claim that because there's so few nonbinary people in the overall population that literally anything we ask for isn't worth it. To be seen as someone with so little value hurts a lot. Must be fun to be part of the majority all the time. Easy mode. Also, all the "hee haw I'm a computer/cat/whatever so respect my gender!!!" jokes are really cool and definitely not pulled from like 2012.

@ the OP, it would be cool to have 'they' pronouns as an option, even though I'm nb and use he/him. More options for character creation and uniqueness is always welcome, in my opinion.

[Cled-cat]

The sad part about this is that this seems to be going from an English only standpoint. I have yet to see any of them come up with a solution on how this would work in languages who may have different words/meanings. Or if they even have an official neutral term that fits well in dialogue. Like how someone brought up they/them - how in English that's actually more common to use when you're addressing a group and not an individual. Zero thought going into it other than the western viewpoint of English speakers.

See this is a point I agree with you on. We’ve only discussed the English side mostly, so you’re right, it’s not gonna be a realistic change at all unless it can be argued for every localisation. That’s a conversation to be had for sure.

[Cled-cat]

Simple, we're not 24/7 at 100% brain activity thinking everything we do, our brains have premade paths of neural thinking and reacting created by repetition repetition repetition and repetition. So we're mostly on automode, otherwise our brains would literally boil.
So, when we talk, much of what we spew is made by this auto-mode.
If you want people to use those "new" ways of reffering to someone, they have to get those neural patterns remade. Which by the way, it's quite taxing, energy demanding and mildly painful. Just like studying.
Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

[Doozer]

Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

This.

What makes you pretty sure of that?
Have you even read my post? Are you trying to prove wrong how the human brain works? I'd say pretty go inform yourself. It's not a matter of stubborness but learning. What you're asking for is a simple word but the word you're trying to change is something pretty hardcoded into the brain, using the "right" word every single time and out of the blue would incur the person to go into manual mode every single time until after some months or years the words come out natural. Going into manual mode for speech is hugely taxing as I said. Like giving a thesis presentation in front of important people.
You're asking a lot from people, what are you giving in return for such a favor?

"They" is part of English already, at least. I can't speak for others. If you can remember to call one friend "he" and not accidentally call your other friend "he" when that person uses "she", you can do the same with "they". It's like juggling; if you can juggle two things you can juggle three. It only requires a little bit of adapting and is not as difficult as learning how to do it in the first place.

And that last sentence is just disgusting. Saying I should do something for someone in order to receive the most basic of respect? I hope I never meet you or anyone like you in person.

[Siete]

This.



"They" is part of English already, at least. I can't speak for others. If you can remember to call one friend "he" and not accidentally call your other friend "he" when that person uses "she", you can do the same with "they". It's like juggling; if you can juggle two things you can juggle three. It only requires a little bit of adapting and is not as difficult as learning how to do it in the first place.

And that last sentence is just disgusting. Saying I should do something for someone in order to receive the most basic of respect? I hope I never meet you or anyone like you in person.

Disgusting?
You are changing the way they people talks, rewiring their automated speech, and what do they get for being nice and respecting you? Self entitled attitudes making their extra effort worthless.

One sec, I think I found a way to TL;DR this thread!
Self entitlement.

[Siete]

Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

There are no studies specific to "friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns" that I know of, but hundreds of studies in parallel learnings which are pretty much the same. You should use google and find out how it works and what you're asking for to be done in an eye blink. We're indeed hardwired machines through life's experiences, which means that hardwiring can constantly change, at a cost of course, which I explicitly mentioned.
Also, why are you pulling the 50's 60's card here? That makes anything you say lose any value it could have.
If you want to play it that way, don't you find it amazing how much society changed in 50 years? FIFTY YEARS. It wasn't a day, a week or a month, it took FIFTY YEARS of PEOPLE WILLING TO CHANGE.
Yes, we should all be enormously thankful to all those who decided to make the titanic effort to change, go against the norm, risk their life and stop the racism you mention. If it wasn't for them, imagine the world we would live in today

[Cled-cat]

This. /10char

My phone is dying so I’m gonna be off this thread for tonight soon, probably a good thing judging by how the thread is going

[Doozer]

My phone is dying so I’m gonna be off this thread for tonight soon, probably a good thing judging by how the thread is going

Yeah. Some people here are pretty scummy and are not much of a joy to interact with. I've said my piece, so I'll let them be disrespectful and lacking empathy for other humans without me.

[Cled-cat]

I do remember the whole MAP, situation. I simply don't think this is the place to open up this can of worms. My argument is this, why should the gender-neutral get something and not the others? That's the point I'm trying to make. As of such, I found it very much relevant. Do I wish them to have their pronouns, no, I don't agree with them. Do I agree with a neutral pronoun, yes, but it's most likely impossible with this game in regards to their code. This is why game such as cyberpunk and vampire masquerade should be celebrated because you can pick your pronoun/desired body, they don't care - it doesn't affect the gameplay. This however does affect the gameplay to an extent.

The negatives seem to outweigh the positives. As MMO, this is a QoL feature that will only be used by a certain few, yet take a large chunk of time in order to complete and then continue. We already have an issue with missing genders; where they have time constraints. This would be something else that would be needed to be added so they can meet their release dates. Even if it makes them smile to see the dialogue in the text stating their correct gender pronoun, this is then destroyed by voiced dialogue which will say male/female and the social aspect of the game where most people will use your avatars pronoun to address you. From what I've studied, seen and witnessed the adverse effects of this does not outweigh the con. And this can be seen in plenty of scientific documentation regarding the situation. You can indeed, give, but when you take at the same time it's emotionally draining. The same goes from switching from 'they/them' to 'he/she' in every other conversation.

That’s definitely an interesting point. It’s pretty much a pipe-dream at this point to ask for sweeping changes to this established game already. The lack of consistency would be pretty off-putting yeah, so unless they did wanna go fully 100% in to adding extra voice overs to keep the immersion it is pretty unlikely. However I personally would be pretty happy with even just the text options, many non-binary people who ever get the rare acknowledgment of their preferred pronouns still feel super grateful for it, so that’s an argument to be had.