Thread: Level-headed review of 5.0 AST

Posting limits are annoying...

Originally Posted by Sylve

I didn't include Earthly Star or Horoscope because they each require a setup. Neither can be used reactively where WHM and SCH both have shorter recast oGCDs that are can be dropped instantly before an AST can place and pop a Star.
Not to mention the abysmal radius of Earthly Star …

Healing in this game isn’t reactive—it’s proactive. All damage is scripted, therefore all healing can be scripted to go along with it. Earthly Star is placed well in advance of any AOE raid damage, and allowed to detonate on its own without any interference from the AST that placed it. That is how you properly use the ability, and good ASTs take the time to learn its most effective timings (without losing a cast) in the various fights they participate in. So I think it was wrong of you to not include it simply because its not an “instantly press this button”. It requires more foresight, but it fulfills the same purpose. As does Horoscope—it just feels really awkward to use in comparison to WHM’s new PI. Assize is also not really used for healing—optimally, it is a damage button. You only hold it for AOE healing if a raidwide is coming up within 5 seconds of it coming off cooldown. Otherwise, you risk losing a cast (if not multiple), and that’s bad.
This is what happened when the developers made it a 45s recast in 4.5. It was not as huge of a loss before to hold it a bit longer for healing when it was still 60s (though it still wasn’t ideal), but the 45s change made it into a damage button.

I don’t see Star’s radius as a detriment. The skill is extremely powerful (and was the bane of many WHMs in SB). People should be stacked for healing in the event of raidwides anyways.
And, for tanks that run out of my Star when I place it, I just Rescue them back into it.

Horoscope is much the same way—it is primed before raidwides, and executed immediately afterwards for the top-off Aspected Helios HoTs would be unable to provide. It is not a tool meant to be used reactively—which Rapture and Indom aren’t either. They are all planned around a fight’s timeline.

Originally Posted by Sylve

The non AoE healing issues that ASTs lack of a toolkit causes is most evident in EX dungeon mass pulls.
Both WHM and SCH have powerful tools they can use to create windows for damage dealing even when the Tank is under heavy incoming damage that also don't cost them MP. AST does not.
The only time my AST feels as strong as WHM and SCH do all the time is under Neutral Sect.

I’d say it’s not just limited to Expert dungeon pulls. AST can still heal content, but it has to consistently work harder at it compared to the other two. Single-targets are more or less the same as they’ve always been, but AST potencies are still noticeably lower, and even when paired with a co-healer (SCH or AST), they have to do twice the work of their co-healer to achieve the same result.

That said, AST is not without its MP-free tools. But it’s sadly not in a state where it can efficiently space them out enough, and often has to blow multiple tools at the same time, especially during large dungeon pulls (e.g., using both charges of ED + Celestial Intersection multiple times; COpp + CU just for extra HoTs on top of Aspected Benefic, etc.). Potency buffs would allow for these cooldowns to be spaced out more efficiently through a dungeon, allowing AST to have more tools at their disposal for each pull.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Just plainly buffing potencies will 'help' but it will not solve the root of the issue. That being the toolkit itself is lacking. I don't have issues at all with how the cards function right now. If they need a percentile buff then they need a percentile buff. But since i'm not having trouble utilizing Div/SD/Draw/MA between Malefic casts, I don't see a need to speak on it.

Speaking specifically on the cards (since they were mentioned), optimal use of Divination/Sleeve Draw requires an AST to hold Lightspeed specifically for these windows (Divination and Sleeve are used together). The idea is to get out as many Minor Arcana’d buffs as possible in addition to Divination’s 6%, which will require a lot of double-weaving on behalf of the AST with Draws and Minor Arcanas and Plays. In order for this to not affect their ABC, they have to hold LS for this. This is poor design, and it also takes away LS usages from other situations where they can conserve MP (e.g., perhaps during a larger pull where the tank is taking more damage than expected), or when they would be needed for movement.

Originally Posted by Sylve

AST was my first 80, followed by SCH and then WHM. I'm playing all 3 at the same time at i440 in EX dungeons and Eden. I'm not just basing my assertion on wistfully looking at what someone playing a WHM is doing and thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

AST was my second 80, followed by WHM as my 3rd. I’ve only been in Expert dungeons with them, as my EX primals and Eden NM runs have been solely for practicing DNC in preparation for Savage (still need to work out a few kinks with my rotational awareness); but I’ve healed Extreme primals with both healers since HW (routinely—I prefer healing EX primals over DPSing because I think its more fun). I healed some Savage in SB (Deltascape and Sigmascape—didn’t get around to Alphascape), and I even stepped into UCoB and healed up to Blackfire on AST. Eventually I plan to take AST/WHM into current EX/Savage, but for now I have been focusing on practicing DNC and getting my crafters/gatherers ready for the tier.

My assessments are based on my own experiences with leveling AST in ShB, comparing it to the iterations I have played in the past, and my comparison of it when I leveled ShB WHM immediately afterwards. I’m not basing them off of nothing. I’m not sure if this was your intention, but you’re almost making it sound as if my assessments have no basis to them—as in, I haven’t “experienced” the healers this expansion. I assure you, I have (with the exception of SCH, but it’s always been my least played of the three). If I am misreading your statement here, then I apologize.

Originally Posted by Sylve

You clearly see the Card system as the biggest hurdle AST has right now. I strongly disagree. Playing them all in the same content and working harder as an AST to do the things that WHM and SCH can do without breaking a sweat has me looking for the root of why that is.

While I dislike the new card system because it destroyed the very thing that initially attracted me to the job, I don’t think that’s AST’s biggest hurdle right now. It’s one of their hurdles, but it’s the healing potencies and damage potencies that are hurting it far more right now in addition to clunky gameplay that even high-tier ASTs have issues with. If you got that from my (very long) post talking about its healing inefficiencies, I’m honestly not sure how that is. Perhaps it’s from another post in another thread I’ve made discussing the card system?

Originally Posted by Sylve

I see the problem as the Sects, especially since Neutral Sect is what makes AST feel as strong as the other 2 in the same situations.

I have to disagree. For reasons I stated initially and won’t repeat here.

Originally Posted by Sylve

I'll absolutely not disagree with CO and CU being extremely weak for what they are. I just don't believe that beefing up their potencies and calling it a day is enough to close the gap between AST and the others.

Of course it’s not. Adjustments to AST’s pDPS and/or rDPS contributions also need to be made. AST is significantly behind WHM in all three regards (healing, pDPS, and rDPS), behind SCH in at least healing and pDPS (need to confirm how much rDPS Chain is versus the cards, but I think the cards pull ahead still there); and, as I predicted when I saw the card changes and how much damage WHM was putting out during the early days of ShB in the EX trials, they just can’t compete. Divination is also way too long a CD for its weak buff and should be adjusted as well. I suggested a 120s CD with perhaps a buff to the percentage earlier in this thread.

Originally Posted by Sylve

On the Eden dummy:
AST - 5.21k
SCH - 6.18k
WHM - 6.86k

The gap between all 3 personal damages is pretty small. In dungeons and such, AST just has far fewer opportunity to just sit down and belt out some damage. Its kit doesn't let it. Cards can be manipulated entirely between Malefic casts
Counted the casts too .. Despite PoM used twice, only got 2 more Glare at 65 than I did Malefics at 63.

Dummy parses are completely different from in practice, and the discrepancies extend well past dungeons (though AST does have fewer damage opportunities in there save against bosses). I would invite you to go look at a few logs on Everyone’s Favorite Website. WHMs are significantly ahead of both SCH and AST in terms of their personal damage. At some percentiles, they are even doing more damage than the tanks. The margin in practice is not small.

Dummy parses are a very poor way to properly assess the capabilities of a job. They should always be assessed within content, not in a static environment where the job isn’t affected by mechanics, movement, or applicable raid buffs. They just don’t give the full picture.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Long story short, WHM and SCH can both create damage windows using the strength of their whole kits. AST cannot do that even when using its whole kit. CO and CU wont be used for every trash pack due to recast. So even if we beefed their potencies .. yay, only half the dungeon feels crap to heal now?

Just make Neutral Sect the default state of Aspected casts. Give AST the identity of a Healer that uses shields and regens in equal measure.

I do think that some potency tweaks will allow AST to further space out its healing CDs throughout a dungeon, much like how a tank can space out their defensive CDs. As it stands now, they cannot afford to space them out simply because they are too weak. And Neutral Sect is only every 120s, so it’s definitely not always available. However, AST in dungeons back in HW and SB were able to space out resources and utilize (now removed) resources for additional “umph” in their healing (e.g., Time Dilation of HoTs on the tank; COpp’s Stun to stun a large pack of mobs for a breather).

They have given AST more tools in ShB to allow them to use both their resources (shields and HoTs) at the same time. However, I don’t think this constitutes removing the sects entirely, because I don’t think they’re the reason AST is in the state its in. Mid- and late-HW AST was fine, even with the Sects, and SB AST was fine, even with the Sects. Noct was still the red-headed step child, but it had its uses, even if they were niche (e.g., solo healing).
Plus, removal of the sects would require lore retconning and restructuring of some of the job quests/solo instances during the AST storyline. It’s not uncommon to be asked to use Diurnal Aspected Benefic or Nocturnal Aspected Benefic on a target, and be given a lore reason why this is. It’s bad enough they’ve thrown the card lore in the pin...I don’t think this also needs to happen with the sects.

Again, I simply have to disagree with you that it’s the sects at fault here. More so than issues with potency.

Thanks for the great post. Nice to see some lvl 80 Ast players posting in detail especially about the healing issues.

This is quite long... I hope I answered everything thoroughly. Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to try to address each point. I condensed some for the sake of length.

Originally Posted by Sylve

While fights are scripted, people are not. Its hard enough keeping DF players in range of a precast Cure III during a stack because its like they're physically repelled from one another upon receiving damage lol.

While that is the case, in organized groups for things like Extreme trials, Savage, and Ultimate, this is rarely an issue. Even in pug EX trials and Savage, people are generally good about staying in Earthly Star’s radius. There are, of course, instances where things don’t go smoothly, but that’s to be expected in a not-perfect world.

With damage being scripted, it’s also easy to know when one would need to react in the event unexpected damage occurs to a party member. If someone is clipped by something they shouldn’t have been hit by, having awareness of the fight itself will allow you to react to the situation faster and it will allow you to know what sort of reactionary measures you need to take (e.g., “There’s a raidwide/mechanic coming up, so I need to probably opt for an ED/Benefic II over just an Aspected Benefic so that they can survive the hit” or “There’s no other outgoing damage/imporant mechanic happening for quite some time, so a regen will be fine”).

Healing is still mostly proactive and should never be viewed from a reactionary point of view. I think the only time it’s reactionary is when one is initially learning the content, and reacting to the boss’s dance moves. But once the routine is learned, everything is expected and healing becomes proactive by nature. Even the unexpected healing caused by others poor awareness or moments of unintentionally spacing out.

Originally Posted by Sylve

To elaborate on why I left out Horoscope and Earthly Star, Both have minute long recasts that need to be primed/prepped before damage happens. Yes, Earthly Star is incredibly powerful ... Conditionally. It is dependant on how your party reacts to its presence.
I've dropped Star before the Stack marker in E2N only for the entire party to move out of it because the one with the stack marker stopped on the wrong side of it.

When players move out of range of the Star, yes it is frustrating. Just as it’s frustrating for them not stacking for Cure III or being too far spread for Indom. However, that being said, this doesn’t really diminish the impact of the skill itself.
In the event of tanks moving out of my Star, I simply just Rescue them back into it. I do the same thing when they move out of Asylum. If they move out again, I try to politely inform them that it’s definitely within their best interests to stay in the Star/Bubble and explain that it heals. Most are receptive, however there are the occasional jerks that continue to grief. At that point, though, Vote Dismiss is used faster than any healing tool I have at my disposal.

And I do find it a bit unfair to disqualify it and Horoscope simply because preparation is required and they have cooldown timers (personally, I don’t find them terribly long—COpp is what I’d consider long). A lot of the other skills you listed also have resources required (Rapture, Indom, Fey Blessing) or have cooldowns attached to them (Indom, Assize), so I don’t feel as if excluding Star and Horoscope is really justified here; even if the opposing skills have shorter recasts. They aren’t shorter by a terrible amount, in my opinion, so I don’t believe it makes that huge of a difference in the end.

In addition to everything being scripted: preparation is not terribly hard for either of the skills, and you would map them just as you’d map out any of the others listed. Star is usually available during each dungeon pull, for example—it’s rare that it won’t be off cooldown before a tank begins a fresh pull unless things are living way too long/dying really slowly and you’re forced to place it again due to lack of anything else. So you plan around having it there for each pull. Bosses have AOEs where you can prep deploying Horoscope, Aspected Helios after the AOE occurs, and pop it afterwards for an additional top off that the HoTs will finish (I actually used Horoscope a lot during dungeon bosses due to that—like the bat boss in Ravel and the armadillo in Malikah’s).

It’s just all thinking about healing from a planning/proactive perspective. I feel like that may be where we are differing because I’m not sure how you personally view encounters—if you view them as a timeline where you have a plan laid down for oGCDs or as something else.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Cant always just yell at people for being 'bad' too because certain party settings for animations render the Star invisible. I have a decent PC and play with most everything on max except party animations, which I turn to limited because I hate that bosses vanish into a pile of particle effects.
The only hint that theres a Star active is the dim outline of the radius marker when another AST drops it. Its easy to miss on Limited, impossible to even see at None. . . .Assize/Rapture/Indom/FB don't have that problem. Doesn't matter what the party is doing, those spells will be just as effective in every party. Not so for Earthly Star, its use is dictated by whether or not party members can even see it, let alone stand in it.
Visibility via settings is something that needs a fix too though lol.

The Limited animation ring is the same as the full, unhindered/uncalled animation ring. I keep effects on for myself, limited for party, and off for non-party; and I’ve never not seen the ring when its dropped by other ASTs that aren’t myself. Just in case you didn’t know, the indicator is still the same for it—it’s not diminished in any way.

Personally, I think for things like Star, Asylum, and Sacred Soil, the effects should never be disabled. As in they always show much like how boss effects always show. I think that’s a design the developers should definitely look into. Most systems that can run FFXIV now can stand to have those indicators showing without it affecting performance.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Also, the fact that raidwides tend to happen multiple times per minute means there are often times when neither Star or Horoscope are available.
I'd appreciate tools as an AST that aren't heavily reliant on the party understanding how my stuff works or is required to be primed before utilizing. There's a gulf between parties who understand the limitations of Star and those that don't care. Neither of the other healers suffer that.

In higher end content, most raidwides are spaced enough that there is always an oGCD heal to respond to them with: be it an AST’s Star, a SCH’s Indom, or a WHM’s Rapture. If multiple raidwides happen in short succession, generally you can judge how much damage your party takes and time oGCD heals after a certain point or you can rely on HoTs (stacked or alone) to tick up the damage without spamming heals—they generally aren’t timed between each hit.

For example, Garuda’s cleanses in UwU usually saw a spread Adlo for the initial cleanse > Indomitability for the second cleanse > AST CU or WHM Asylum to tick up the second with maybe a Medica II/Aspected on top. After the fourth Friction, she jumps, and healers can take that time (after moving for the Feather Rain mechanic), to top the party up/apply shielding in time for Aerial Blast. This happens within the span of ~30 seconds, with Aerial Blast happening about ~10 seconds afterwards. So there are always answers, it just requires coordination, which unfortunately may not be present in pugs.

In dungeons, generally HoTs + an oGCD tend to be enough for most of it, since the dungeon raidwides typically aren’t hard-hitting. With the bat boss in Ravel, I used Aspected Helios during his stompy stompy temper tantrum (I cannot recall the name of the mechanic right now...Subtonics or something like that), and the hit of it plus the HoTs were usually enough to top everyone. Afterwards, when he screeches, I would apply the HoTs if need be, but generally I could use an oGCD for that (either have Star placed and ready or utility COpp/CU).

Originally Posted by Sylve

Another example of ASTs problems with relying on Star is bosses like Tycoon. In the event someone touches the beams, our ability to respond to that is extremely limited compared to SCH and WHM. We shouldn't have to depend on the party playing perfectly.

In the event someone touches the beams, the best course of action would be for you respond with Essential Dignity. You don’t prioritize Star for one person making a mistake. If you do not have ED, you respond with a GCD: be it a regen to tick them up gradually or a Benefic I/II.

Originally Posted by Sylve

That got a bit long winded .. Sorry. But I hope it at least shows you where I'm coming from in regards to AoE healing.

As I said above, I think the discrepancies between our views is that I view healing as proactive on a timeline that I still have a script for even in the event someone in my party takes unexpected damage from “standing in the bad” (for lack of a better phrase in my sleepy mind). I’m not sure how you view healing, but I wonder if it’s different from mine, and that’s why we are at odds with some of our specific healing discussions.

Originally Posted by Sylve

On potencies specifically, I didn't say changes there would be unwelcome or unhelpful. I do agree we need better potencies and improving them will ease some of the burden.
But just straight beefing the potencies isn't really a perfect solution. We shouldn't be beholden to long cooldowns to do what the others can do at a baseline.

Originally Posted by Sylve

I would actually love to see CU have no recast. Considering it stops us from doing anything at all, being able to snap it on and off at will would be interesting.
CO's potencies look like its intended to be an AoE version of CI. The roadblock here is its cooldown. Changing that to match CI while also making it share the recast with it could be an interesting way to make it more useful without needing to just buff potencies through the roof to justify the recast.

I think there is definite room to have cooldowns reduced while also applying potency boosts—mild ones, not overpowered ones. I think both CU and COpp should see a small potency boost and their cooldowns brought down—COpp’s cooldown at the very least. Buffing CU and leaving at 90s would be fine, since it is comparable to Asylum. However, Sacred Soil is still extremely powerful, so I’m not sure how to balance against it.

With CU, since the Patch 4.4 change to allow its regen and mitigation to apply instantly, we no longer need to loiter in the bubble waiting for it to apply. Depending on its strength (should it be buffed), it could maybe see a cooldown reduction to 60s. But we also don’t want to make it too strong. I’ve seen suggestions to have the regen potency from it be 100, and the duration and recast remain the same pop up before. That way it doesn’t feel like a waste, but it also isn’t broken like it was in Stormblood. I think making it spammable would not be a good idea though. Simply because there’s rarely a reason to spam HoTs in the content in this game.

COpp most definitely needs a buff in potency and a reduction in its cooldown.

Originally Posted by Sylve

I only brought up cards due to this quote from you.
Do cards need a potency buff? Maybe. Next week will tell us if SE agrees.
I'm not sure why you'd need to hold Lightspeed to enable Sleeve Draw to be used effectively. Malefic leaves us with a full second to do a Draw. Sleeve Draw charges put Draw to 4 second recasts.
The 4 second recast on Draw means I can Malefic, draw, Malefic, Redraw/Play/MA and repeat. Lets me double weave even at my latency, but since the next card is a full 4 seconds after the last Draw, theres plenty of time to fit Malefics between fiddling with cards even without them being instant.

Lightspeed is used with Sleeve Draw because Sleeve Draw is used during a Divination window: they both have 180s recasts, and Divination is AST’s major burst window. Therefore, AST wants to try to toss out as many Minor Arcana’d cards during Divination’s duration to increase their rDPS contribution; so the two are always used in tandem. Because of this, you are constantly double weaving Draw, Minor Arcana, and Play between trying to keep up your cast times, be they Malefics, Benefics, or Helios (Always Be Casting mentality). Not employing Lightspeed during this timeframe means that you cannot double weave card actions without clipping your next GCD, which means lost damage/late healing for you. Malefic’s cast only allows for 1 weave, and Benefic II/Helios/Aspected Helios allow for 0 weaves. You need approximately 0.75s for each oGCD weave.

Personally, I think AST cards or its damage need a buff. It’s ~900 rDPS behind WHM right now, and ~400 behind SCH at the higher percentiles. It’s really painful to see the disparity between it and the other two right now.

Originally Posted by Sylve

What is truly gained by only using Sleeve Draw under Lightspeed? I'm actually genuinely curious. Aside from the obvious double weaves, of course.

There was a nice picture floating around in the Balance illustrating the branching path a Divination window could take, but I sadly cannot locate it as I am writing this up, so I will try to describe it the best I can with my words.

The general idea is that you have a Minor Arcana’d card held already in Play before deploying Divination, with Draw on CD and Sleeve Draw at the ready. After deploying Divination, you want to Sleeve Draw; then you are using Draw, Redraw if necessary (in the event you are drawing cards for roles that already have cards applied), Minor Arcana, and Play as many cards as you can during Divination’s duration so that you have buffs stacked to increase the effectiveness of the window (Divination’s 6% plus Lord/Lady 8%). Especially since it stacks with other major 180s raid buffs such as Battle Litany and Battle Voice—this only increases its effectiveness and is a DPS gain to the party.


Lightspeed is necessary to prevent GCD clipping, loss of damage, and loss of healing (if you are having to heal during this period). If you do not employ Lightspeed, you cannot double weave all the actions needed during Divination’s window to effectively maximize your raid damage. It’s actually truly horrible to do in practice and feels extremely clunky—at least, in my opinion. Opting to single-weave is a noticeable loss to your party, so you hurt them more than yourself in the long run.

As an aside, I think this is terrible design, and I abhor that LS has to be held for optimizing this window. It removes the versatility from the skill.

[QUOTE=Sylve;5106211]No apology needed. I have a terrible habit of being terrible at explaining things properly. My statement about playing all 3 was only to give you context in how I arrived at the conclusions I did. There were no allusions to your experiences intended.

I understand now where you are coming from. Glad that we could clear that up.

Originally Posted by Sylve

As for Dummy numbers, they are a part of the picture. Not the full picture, but those numbers are important regardless. They show what the job is capable of when it just sits down and does damage.
Provides a bit of a goalpost to aim for in personal optimization. Knowing the theoretical max allows one to tweak and adjust in an attempt to reach it.

In terms of personal damage, it can provide a part of the picture. However, raid damage is what is most important, in my opinion. Dummy parses cannot show raid damage; and there are jobs whose personal damage is affected by their party, which dummy parses also do not show (e.g., DNC is a big one—with no ability to Dance Partner during a dummy parse, they lose out on Esprit gain, which means they lose out on damage). Obviously, this doesn’t apply to every job, but I still think they aren’t the best method to employ when gauging damage.

Originally Posted by Sylve

By the way .. My suggestion for Neutral Sects effect to be baseline could easily be resolved by making the effect a Trait with the Sects being used to enhance one aspect over the other instead of choosing between them. Making it a high level trait eliminates the need to fix lower level quests that required a specific Sect.
It's kind of supported in the Lore based on the dialogue with Leveva in the 80 Job Quest.

Such a change is an immediate power boost for AST before any Potencies get altered.
Potencies are a problem, one I never denied.
But I still believe the root of ASTs weakness lies in underwhelming Sects.
Its been a pleasure to debate this with you though :P

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree with this. I don’t believe the different Sects hold AST back by any stretch—not as they may have in the past where they were too weak/too ineffective against their co-healer counterparts. Noct Sect still suffers from this, but I believe it can be balanced to still be viable if the developers tried. Diurnal is fairly strong on its own (as it proved in Stormblood), and I think it’s more than capable of being such in ShB. But those changes will have to come with potencies, not through Sect revamping, in my opinion.

I like that there are inter-Sect abilities, and I think they can be expanded upon. I’d love to see more in the future. But I don’t see the necessity of removing them entirely. Honestly, I’d love to see a day where I could actually use Nocturnal and not bleed myself dry; be as viable as a SCH would be. But that’s me.


I tried to answer everything, but I may have missed some things. I am quite tired. Apologies again that it is practically a novella. I am always too verbose.