Thread: Level-headed review of 5.0 AST

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Simple potency fixes don't fix core job mechanics issues.

Pretty much everyone who has posted on AST has entirely missed what those core issues are.

Diurnal is intended to make AST more like WHM by copying Regen + Medica II but it falls flat because AST lacks all the other tools that makes WHM as powerful as it is.
Nocturnal is intended to make AST more like SCH by copying Adloqium + Succor but falls flat due to lacking all the tools SCH has to capitalize on those Shields.
It is, in my opinion absurdly simple to correct. Roll Diurnal into Nocturnal.
Make it so Regen ticks come with an equal sized shield application for its duration. They still wouldn't stack with Galvanize. Turn Neutral Sect into a cooldown that converts the total potency of the Shield+Regen on aspected spells into single bomb heals.

Beefing up potency is just a bandaid on the gaping wound caused by the Sects.

Originally Posted by PaulH

I like to think I am good with SCH and WHM it isn't my play style as I like shields and preventing damage. But the burst healing of WHM and just going pow pow pow is fun. I was alright with AST pre SHB in NOCT and did a few lvl 70 dungeons post and it feel tough.

Question as this is a level headed AST review. How viable is a NOCT stance as in stands a AST? does it get easier in SHB? (I get we have adjustments coming up)

Noct is still as MP inefficient now as it was back in Stormblood. Noct gives Aspected Benefic a 1,000 MP cost as opposed to a 500 MP cost, like it has in Diurnal. For dungeons, you’re better off being in Diurnal Sect. At level 64, you learn Celestial Intersection, which can give you a small shield every 30s for free while in Diurnal. Perfect for a little bit of cushioning, though I think it could use a potency buff still. It’s the only skill I’m pleased with that ShB added aside from Neutral Sect (which is also more efficient to use while in Diurnal).

It’s much more deep rooted than mere potency values and balace tweaks. The bottom line is that an AST is expected to play at a higher APM rate than WHM or SCH to the order of 25%. Take a look at the opener mentioned in another thread here. The fact that an AST needs to use lightspeed with sleeve draw to not make themselves clip into oblivion should have massive alarm bells ringing. The fact that they gain so little for it was clearly the last call for evacuation.

This was not a redesign made by anyone who actually plays a healer in high end content. Honestly, it strikes me as a revamp cooked up by someone as a 4pm Friday night special who was more interested in what they were going to order in the pub in an hours time. It’s not slick, it’s not clever and it’s not well thought out. It’s just a bunch of reactionary changes slapped together with little to no thought given about how they will interact with each other, let alone any other job out there.

I’m not refusing to play AST because it’s potency values are low. Rather, I’m not playing it because it’s just horrible to try and optimise with at the moment.

Some of these ridiculous changes to AST just cannot be justified. The class was botched and the proof is in the pf where AST are getting locked out of a spot and every healer in every pf you browse through is a WHM. Hmm, Wonder why?

Originally Posted by Sylve

Pretty much everyone who has posted on AST has entirely missed what those core issues are.

Diurnal is intended to make AST more like WHM by copying Regen + Medica II but it falls flat because AST lacks all the other tools that makes WHM as powerful as it is.
Nocturnal is intended to make AST more like SCH by copying Adloqium + Succor but falls flat due to lacking all the tools SCH has to capitalize on those Shields.
It is, in my opinion absurdly simple to correct. Roll Diurnal into Nocturnal.
Make it so Regen ticks come with an equal sized shield application for its duration. They still wouldn't stack with Galvanize. Turn Neutral Sect into a cooldown that converts the total potency of the Shield+Regen on aspected spells into single bomb heals.

Beefing up potency is just a bandaid on the gaping wound caused by the Sects.

Care to explain why the sects are the problems and not things such as just clunky gameplay in general? Or neutered job mechanics? Or neutered abilities? Why is everyone else wrong with regards to their complaints, and why are yours correct?


EDIT: I’m out of posts and don’t feel like waiting for a new one, so here’s my reply to your response below. Not sure if you’ll see it because I’m adding it to this one, but here it is.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Raising the potency of things like Diurnal Helios isn't going to change the fact that a WHM, which is what Diurnal copies, has far more tools in its kit than the AST does. Therein lies the problem. Diurnal makes us a WHM with half the kit. Noct makes us a SCH with half the kit.

Except this wasn’t a problem for AST in Stormblood. At all. It could keep up easily with all healing requirements for Savage and Ultimate—WHM was just the safer option due to burst healing (especially for UCoB and Bahamut’s Seventh Umbral Era—AST could heal that, but WHM was just the safer option with Thin Air+Cure III spam AND WHM could heal through it without tank LB3, though tank LB3 was still generally preferred) and for its better MP economy. But, again, this didn’t make AST a “budget WHM”, nor did it stop them from being able to heal the content effectively.

AST being a “copy” of WHM didn’t hold it back at all, especially with SB Earthly Star being a godly tool that WHM didn’t have an answer to and SB Collective Unconscious being the strongest regen in the game at that time (that WHM also didn’t have an answer to). Now, AST suffers due only to potency inefficiencies when it comes to its healing—not really for lack of toolkit. It has more healing options now than it did back then; they’re just all weak.

The only argument you have really is for Nocturnal shields, which are not as effective as SCH shields despite Noct Aspected Helios being stronger than Succor in Stormblood (and I believe they still shield for more than Succor now). But Nocturnal in and of itself has always been the less efficient of the two sects in terms of MP due to the nature of regens just being worth more per the MP spent. Now so more than ever, since new Noct ups Aspected Benefic to 1,000 MP from Diurnal’s 500.
Noct AST was still the preferred healer for solo healing Savage and Ultimate though, so we have to at least give it that credit.

Originally Posted by Sylve

To throw an example of how that issue plays out in a real fight, take any raidwide burst of damage that brings people low like the Gravity in E1. AST in Diurnal casts AHelios for 100p and a 100p Regen. And then what? What else does the AST do to bring the party back up?

WHM can follow up with Rapture and Assize
SCH can follow up with Fey Blessing and Indom.
AST can follow up with … what exactly?

Well-timed Earthly Star and Horoscope. Are you forgetting about those two abilities? Earthly Star is all about its timings—you try to time its usage around raidwide AOEs, even sitting on it for a small bit if it means you can line it up with a raidwide and blow up for a 720 potency heal for all who stand in it. Horoscope is a clunkier version of WHM’s new Plenary Indulgence, in which a Helios/Aspected Helios can trigger a stronger oGCD heal the AST can weave. With some potency fixes, Horoscope has potential (and I honestly think they should change it to activate immediately after a heal or to detonate once the buff wears off a la Earthly Star). But, as of right now, it’s weaker than it should be (and a bit clunky to use).

Collective Unconscious and the new Celestial Opposition seeing some changes (either potency buffs, cooldown reductions, or a combination of both) could also help AST’s AOE healing toolkit. CU has already proven before that it can be strong and extremely valuable. I’d like to see that return instead of it being a borderline waste of hotbar space. If they want to keep the new COpp, it also needs to see some adjustments. Either bring the cooldown down to 60s, or adjust the potency so it’s worth the 120s cooldown as an oGCD AOE tool.

AST is perfectly capable of healing low HP mechanics—it did so just fine in Stormblood with Exdeath’s White Hole and God Kefka’s Heartless Archangel. But with its current potencies it is going to struggle more than it needs to, and have to dump more GCDs into resources than it should if one were to compare it to the other two. This is a known complaint that has nothing to do with the sects.

Originally Posted by Sylve

AST has the same problem with its non AoE kit too. WHM and SCH have a bunch of things they can do that are both impactful AND free that lets them capitalize on their Shields and Regens.

Just massively boosting the potencies of everything is not a fix. The problem is as it has always been, the Sects turn us into budget versions of the other 2 healers. So fix that.

You have an argument for “budget SCH”, but AST was never considered a “budget WHM” back in Stormblood. Especially after the 4.3 changes to Malefic’s recast and the 4.4 changes to CU: it actually replaced WHM as the prog healer for Final Omega because WHM suffered terribly from all the movement in there, and it became better in UwU after the CU change.

Again, I think with some potency adjustments, AST’s single-target healing kit can be manageable. The 2 charges on Essential Dignity is really nice—keep in mind that ED scales up to 1,000 potency, and it was actually better than Benediction and Tetra back in Stormblood due to its shorter cooldown and higher potency scaling. Sure, they don’t have Lilies, but ED is supposed to be the analog to WHM’s Tetra and SCH’s Lustrate. It effectively serves the same purpose as a single-target oGCD heal.

Celestial Intersection is also an analog for Divine Benison, and I find it the most useful of all the skills AST got this expansion aside from Neutral Sect.



I disagree that the issue lies primarily with the sects and not elsewhere. I think AST’s healing issues lie with weak potencies and underwhelming abilities: CU is a shadow of its former self—Asylum and Sacred Soil crap all over it—and COpp is much too weak for its current 120s cooldown. I think Noct could use some adjustments to be more viable and allow for WHM/Noct AST comps, primarily in MP values being adjusted. They’ve proven they can up the cost of MP in one sect; why not try bringing it down instead so that Noct isn’t just an MP bleed and to actually make it competitive with SCH shields.

None of this is getting into the other glaring issues, which have been repeatedly mentioned but include things such as the cards, Divination, and Sleeve Draw windows affecting gameplay. Not to mention, AST’s personal damage and raid damage—I’m fine with AST having lower personal damage, but it needs to have the raid damage to compete with WHM. As of right now, it has neither. There is honestly no competition between the two.

The sects are the least of AST’s problems.

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Which indicates a balancing issue, precisely what patch 5.05 is meant to address.

If that is the case then tell me why MNK who is basically on par with SAM has the lowest amount of players, gameplay / mechanics are just as important as numbers.

Hopefully next patch alleviates that problem so we can have a clearer look at the class, if numbers output was sorely the reason or if the way a player inputs had a bigger impact than thought.

Originally Posted by Sylve

… I literally outlined why the Sects are a problem.


Raising the potency of things like Diurnal Helios isn't going to change the fact that a WHM, which is what Diurnal copies, has far more tools in its kit than the AST does. Therein lies the problem. Diurnal makes us a WHM with half the kit. Noct makes us a SCH with half the kit.

To throw an example of how that issue plays out in a real fight, take any raidwide burst of damage that brings people low like the Gravity in E1. AST in Diurnal casts AHelios for 100p and a 100p Regen. And then what? What else does the AST do to bring the party back up?

WHM can follow up with Rapture and Assize
SCH can follow up with Fey Blessing and Indom.
AST can follow up with … what exactly?

AST has the same problem with its non AoE kit too. WHM and SCH have a bunch of things they can do that are both impactful AND free that lets them capitalize on their Shields and Regens.

Just massively boosting the potencies of everything is not a fix. The problem is as it has always been, the Sects turn us into budget versions of the other 2 healers. So fix that.

Earthly Star? Which has almost double the heal potency of Assize. They used to use Collective Unconscious, which boasted the single strongest regen in the entire game... until SE nerfed it into oblivion. Even with Astro's current kit, Horoscope and Celestial Opposition would be fine answers towards Rapture and Fey Blessing... if they were laughably weak. Celestial is a 100 potency heal with a 60 potency regen for a meager 16s. All on a 120s CD. Compare this with Rapture—a weaker spell in its own right if we're being honest. It heals for triple the potency and if weaved properly only causes minimal loses for the White Mage despite being on the GCD. This is what holds Astro back currently. The tools it does have at its disposal are horrendously imbalanced. Changing the Sects would address that unless you slap a ton of healing and regen/shield potencies on them—in which case, why not just buff the abilities themselves and achieve the exact same outcome?

Edit: I should also mention, Assize, outside of prog, should never be held for healing. You will inevitably loss a cast—potentially several—due to its short CD. Not only is this a sizable damage loss but you could have simply GCD healed and lost nothing. Even spamming Rapture is better than holding onto Assize. You press it for damage unless you know for absolute certainty there will be a raid wide aoe within maybe 3-4 seconds.

Just massively boosting the potencies of everything is not a fix. The problem is as it has always been, the Sects turn us into budget versions of the other 2 healers. So fix that.

If this was such a prevailing issue, why was Astro straight up better than White Mage from 4.3 and beyond? Cure III was literally all White Mage clung to however, most fights made it less and less valuable due to people spreading out. When Stormblood concluded, Astro was arguably the best healing in the game even if you ignored its utility. It had near free mobility, no clipping issues, the second strongest oGCD heal in Earthly Star (which was AoE compared to Excog being single target) and strongest regen through Collective. And some of these effects could all be extended. Not only did they nerf a significant portion of this, they removed extensions as a whole. This rendered Astro entirely neutered as a healer. Now that could have worked, maybe. But they also destroyed its utility and kept its damage abysmally low.

Put simply, the Sects never held Astro back before.