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  1. #1
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90

    Level-headed review of 5.0 AST

    I find the reactions to healers and AST have been hyperbolic, superficial, and have lacked some depth since the new actions/job guide became available. Like many that might reply to this thread, AST has been my main since it was released.

    However; at the end of the day, I'm sorry if you really enjoyed AST but don't any longer. That's a bummer, truly. If you take a step back and try to understand why systems were changed so drastically, maybe you can come to an understanding that it was all necessary for the future of FFXIV and specifically the healer role.

    In broad strokes, I like the direction AST has taken in Shadowbringers. The design intentions of the job are very obvious now. Low personal DPS augmented by increasing rDPS.

    As for healers in general, it's also obvious now that all you bring is healing/mitigation and a little bit of DPS. Full stop. This adjustment was completely necessary — specifically for the future of the healer role. A lot of the reactions have been to this change. And it's completely valid that losing that greatly affected the feel of AST and for some, took away what made an AST — well — an AST. I would like to posit that the pre-5.0 AST was blurring the lines between healer and support and the changes made were to make AST definitively a healer and not a semi-support job. Again, it's a bummer if you liked that AST filled the vacancy of support role in FFXIV. But WHM and SCH do not have support role capabilities, which made balancing the three jobs difficult. Removing the support role system of AST was good for the long-term outcomes of all healers.

    When a fourth healer is introduced, only having those two systems, healing and dps; it will be much simpler to introduce and balance. The tweaks will then come in the form of how healing and dps are contributed. Support/utility are much harder to attribute value because it's like comparing apples and oranges. Since it's hard to determine a numeric contribution to the overall performance of the job, dividing healing jobs by whether or not they even brought utility leads to instances where a job (like WHM) feels completely useless at times. A little bit more on this later... but back to AST for now...

    I like the new card system. Taking the changes to cards on its own, I can see why many feel AST has been destroyed. The original design made AST feel like a support role and some people really liked that. A few things to keep in mind is that 1) FFXIV doesn't have a proper support role, 2) The citations of previous card effects being more versatile were only really offsetting the shortcomings of how others were playing, 3) Encounter design unapologetically places DPS above everything else.

    (Additional follow-up on the 1, 2, 3 in the first comment)
    (Specific Actions feedback in the following comments due to length of original post)
    (8)
    Last edited by LeftHandedLion; 07-27-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    (Following up on the 1, 2, 3 made in the original post)

    #1 There is nothing that can be done outside of dedicated support roles being introduced. This won't happen. At least no where in the near future. Again, bummer; I really enjoy support roles in other MMOs (shoutout to any other Controller mains from City of Heroes!) When I'm not a healer, I'm support. We'll have to settle for the semi-support ranged physical jobs. Due to the lack of a support role, support/utility is distributed across all jobs. Various buffs or debuffs are sparingly allocated to the different roles. But at a high level, it's quite clear that the design of the battle system changes introduced in Shadowbringers can be summed up in, "git gud." Tanks should tank. Healers should heal. DPS should DPS. And again, at an attempt to not come off as being hostile; it truly is a bummer if you don't like these changes. I empathize with you, but want to encourage positivity and optimism in the face of some of the larger changes, cause change is difficult to accept.

    #2 I believe the ethos of each role responsible for performing their role is the primary cause for AST cards being changed so drastically. If a tank is going to tank, only the tank should be responsible for personal mitigation for tank busters, not an AST's Bole. One might argue that a Bole is similar to a healer's shield, which is pretty valid, but the AST already has shielding capabilities based on its own potency capabilities. Whereas a Bole was always a flat percentage based on the enemy's damage done.

    #3 rDPS is the single most important number in the game (for end-game raiding). After passing mechanics, the group still has to do enough damage. To me, the new card system feels more versatile than the previous while recognizing the importance of DPS. Each card can actually be played optimally; right seal, right role. Although the old utility cards are gone, they only were ever useful in seldom contexts. A caster died and needs some MP. A melee is doing AoE in a dungeon and could use a little bit more TP to keep AoE-ing. You have a BLM therefore Arrow was an option. You have a BRD therefore Spear was acceptable. The cards feel like an improvement to me because of a few reasons. A) Separating Draw and Play were a great choice cause now I'm always drawing every thirty seconds no matter what. This increases the throughput of my cards and the throughput of AST's contribution to rDPS. B) The seals add enough depth to require the AST to consider how to use the card but doesn't overwhelm them from performing elsewhere. C) Every card now contributes to rDPS. This was always, ALWAYS; the primary goal of the AST, get that Balance. Now you're always drawing a semi-Balance every thirty seconds.

    With all that defending out of the way, I still have complaints with the job.
    (7)

  3. #3
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    (Following up on job actions, part 1)

    Divination.
    It feels very underwhelming in its current form. Much too long a cool down, and for very little benefit.

    When I try to rationalize why it was designed the way it was, I find my best theory to be related to how all existing jobs’ raid support/utility was curbed in order to make room for Dancer. I don’t doubt that math was done to ensure that the DPS gain from Arcana and Divination put AST’s overall DPS contribution (personal + cards) at a comparable level to that of WHM and SCH (though perceptively it still feels lower) but I can’t shake the feeling that Divination just feels like a poorly thrown bone.

    I’m hoping that numbers are coming back to the dev team to show that AST could use a helping hand in the rDPS department. If that’s the finding, I would very much prefer the buff to come in the form of making Divination better. I would suggest:
    - Reduce the cool down to 150 seconds (currently 180).
    - Increase the 3 Seal Type DPS boost to 8% (currently 6%).
    - Reduce Sleeve Draw cool down to 150 seconds (currently 180).
    With this arrangement, AST should still get to use Minor Arcana four times between each Divination, keeping it useful. I don't think the individual cards themselves need any buff to the DPS increase since the AST is drawing one every thirty seconds.

    With that being the only change to the cards I want, my actual grievances with AST mostly stem from oGCD heals. I find AST to be lacking far behind the other healers. There are a number of levers that can be pulled here. Make few actions much better or slightly buff each one. I choose for making each one slightly better.

    Essential Dignity
    - Love the two charges this action can build.
    - Essential Dignity has always been AST’s best heal and it continues to be true.
    - However, I think the actual heal can benefit from a small buff.
    - Increase the max potency from 1000 to 1200
    - In theory, this would increase the average use from a potency of 700 (the midpoint of 400 and 1000) to 800 (the midpoint of 400 and 1200), a modest boost.

    Collective Unconscious
    - The HoT on this action was very high (5 ticks of 150 potency) but has been severely reduced to 5 ticks of 50 potency. A total potency heal of 250 is nothing in ShB given the overall reduction of how much healers actually heal and the volume of outgoing damage.
    - I would like to see this raised to at least 100 potency per tick.
    (6)

  4. #4
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    (Following up on job actions, part 2)

    Celestial Opposition
    - This is the action I’m most displeased with. It’s very infuriating! In its previous form, it stunned and extended card and beneficial effect durations. The stun was very helpful in dungeons. Tank pulls everything it can. Put some regens and cards down, pop lightspeed, and then stun all the enemies for an extra buffer of damage mitigation, then go to town with gravity.
    - I’m fine with this action being converted into a healing focused action. But the heal needs to be buffed strongly and the stun was actually a great aid to indirectly healing (via postponing incoming damage).
    - The combination of the tiny radius and lackluster heal make this such a terrible oGCD heal.
    - Improve this action by:
    - Reimplementing the stun effect
    - Increase the radius of the effect to at least 15y
    - Drastically reduce the animation delay (makes shielding rather difficult before the cast bar finishes)
    - In Diurnal, increase the regen potency from 60 to 120.
    - In Nocturnal, remove the initial cure potency altogether and just make it a 300 potency shield. This is higher than Aspected Helios but since this has such a long cool down, I find this reasonable.

    Earthly Star
    - Good ol' Earthly Star, the only thing I don’t wish to see changes. Keep the same.

    Celestial Intersection
    - I really like the short cool down on this action. It’s my favorite new action AST gained.
    - I would want to see the initial cure potency increased from 150 to 200.
    - This would increase the Diurnal shield potency from 375 to 500.
    - Increase the Nocturnal regen from 80 potency to 140 which brings the total potency up from 400 to 700. (I think it’s important to keep this less than Aspected Benefic’s 200 potency tick, 1000 total potency; given the short cool down on the ability.)
    (5)

  5. #5
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    (Following up on job actions, part 3)

    Horoscope
    - If the goals of healer balances in ShB were to make each healer feel more distinct, this action goes against that grain because it still feels too similar to Plenary. This action is just weird. It feels like the red-headed stepchild of Earthly Star and Plenary Indulgence.
    - I really like the huge benefit you get to Earthly Star when you plan its delayed use and think Horoscope could be adjusted to give more of that feeling.
    - This action could benefit from both usability and healing adjustments.
    - Firstly, allow Horoscope to be proc’d by Celestial Opposition. I really want an MP-free way to upgrade Horoscope to Horoscope Helios. Especially if the recommendations to Celestial Opposition listed above were made, this would greatly help the Nocturnal AST.
    - Next, trigger the cure if the status effect times out on a character. Being within range for both the deploy and trigger is a lot to ask for. I think of o12s as an example when, as a healer; I can be very spread out from my teammates and using an ability like this would be nearly impossible.
    - Increase the duration you have to upgrade Horoscope to Helios Horoscope from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. For Earthly Star, you just need to wait. With the addition of having to proc the upgrade, I find myself being rushed to proc Helios Horoscope; which usually makes me spend an unnecessary heal. This could be mitigated if I familiarized myself with encounters so I'm not throwing a GCD and a heal away but this change gives AST some more breathing room to plan healing output.
    - Increase the cure potency of Horoscope from 100 to 200 and Horoscope Helios from 400 to 600.

    These summarize the changes I would like to see to AST. I hope we get some of them for Savage, but I don't expect most of these to come until 5.1

    Overall, I still enjoy AST and will continue to be an AST main, but I'll still fight for some reasonable balances.
    (7)

  6. #6
    Player
    Vid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Iggi Wunohwun
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Overall I'm in agreement with this analysis, I too have mained AST pretty much since it came out. Ever since I reached 80 and have run through the dungeons, primals, etc. I also came to the same conclusion that our new abilities, as well as reworked abilities, could use some potency love. However, the AST kit in general is pretty solid. I firmly believe this, and from all the posts I've read, it's as you said, people seem to be more disappointed in the fact our "support" role was nerfed to say the least, but at the same time a necessary evil to coincide with our other healing brethren to make things more balanced.

    All this being said, I feel the card system now makes AST the most technical for their openers amongst healers. We essentially play a juggling act between Cards, Divination, Healing, and DPS that must be rushed out in a matter of 10s to line up with various party buffs that typically come out during this time. Just in the opener alone, you'll be using 5 cards, Divination, Earthly Star, Lightspeed, 1-3 Redraws depending on RNG, and somewhere in there you'll be including Malefics, Combust, and possibly a heal for your tank (depending).

    Once the opener is done however, our cards, abilities, DPS and healing become very manageable. It's just the opener that feels more along the lines of how SCH used to feel with their openers the previous expansion. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something you must learn to be an even greater asset to your team.

    I also believe one of our biggest weaknesses is our Gravity spell compared to the equivalents of SCH and WHM. To start with ours is the only Healer Damaging AoE ability where we must have a target selected. WHM and SCH both have PBAoE that centers around themselves, where as WHM gets the benefit of also including a stun, SCH has the benefit of theirs being instant cast so they can weave in oGCD's. Yes you must be in the thick of things, and possibly have to dodge a marker on the ground, but it's fairly easy to run in and out after one cast, especially with SCH.

    Unfortunately AST has no such luck in this endeavor and to cast out our Gravity puts us at a disadvantage in dungeon runs. We could use a macro for Target of Target, or variances of it to DPS/Heal, but as we all know Macros are not very reliant when you're trying to weave in other things, you'll be spamming the button instead hoping it goes off and by that point you could've just targeted the stupid thing and cast a spell already.

    Celestial Opposition, as you have said, no longer has a stun, so more often than not you will find yourself constantly having to heal the tank (unless they use an invuln), and not being able to add any additional DPS aside from a card here or there. Yes one can argue we can just LightSpeed, but this is more of a band-aid and is not viable for every pull due to its cooldown. A minor grievance, but at the same time I wish I could be doing more during those big pulls to help them complete faster.
    (5)
    Last edited by Vid; 07-27-2019 at 03:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Yakugami's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Ivaldi Rose
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by LeftHandedLion View Post
    I find the reactions to healers and AST have been hyperbolic, superficial, and have lacked some depth since the new actions/job guide became available. Like many that might reply to this thread, AST has been my main since it was released.

    However; at the end of the day, I'm sorry if you really enjoyed AST but don't any longer. That's a bummer, truly. If you take a step back and try to understand why systems were changed so drastically, maybe you can come to an understanding that it was all necessary for the future of FFXIV and specifically the healer role.

    In broad strokes, I like the direction AST has taken in Shadowbringers. The design intentions of the job are very obvious now. Low personal DPS augmented by increasing rDPS.
    that's great for you, but the majority of people who would want to play any game don't want to have 7 buttons on their bar dedicated to a system that doesn't add up enough rDPS to even bother bringing the class when the actual math is garbage, on top of the "also really bad" personal DPS

    you can look at all the extremists cries of "muh nostalgia for old cards" comments all you want and try to speak to them directly and act like only their voice is the one that needs to be acknowledged, but realistically, mathematically and mechanically, this current card system is fundamentally flawed

    the 4 or something people that are balancing all the classes in the game need more resources, because this is basically a joke at this point

    this game is way too large to have barely any resources dedicated to the way people are literally playing the game for the majority of their time on the class they chose
    (31)
    Last edited by Yakugami; 07-27-2019 at 06:49 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    Heilstos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    260
    Character
    Marius Heilstos
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Hey Lysar,

    I read your wall of text and I have to say that I agree in the most points! I start aswell to say something in the way of react of you long feedbacktext.

    Divination and [Draw]
    I agree changes you speak off takes the speed off and give the timing aspect and thats great. So the idea is not bad. I hope SE goes a way they made in PVP for stormblood for AST. At this time Draw give the AST 5% [500 mana] of his Manapool back. It goes in the way of your free oGCD heal. But I think ED two times make a great jop. And that would force the manaproblems a lot of the com gives us. For the guys who love balance and call what is strong with SD, we can say as long the buff is there the AST get no mana from Draw.

    €: It would be better only to get the mana if you play the card on class that the card is for. That would further favor the proper playing of the cards. Often it feels like it's best to give the card to the strongest DD no matter what weight this card has. That is a Problem the cards has now.And the extra mana spray could be an incentive.

    Essential Dignity
    I like your thinking much. We live in a time where tanks have 120k live so a smal boost is okay.^^

    Collective Unconscious
    - The HoT on this action was very high (5 ticks of 150 potency) but has been severely reduced to 5 ticks of 50 potency. A total potency heal of 250 is nothing in ShB given the overall reduction of how much healers actually heal and the volume of outgoing damage.
    - I would like to see this raised to at least 100 potency per tick.
    The Bubble is the worst of all three Healers. If you do math you see that the Bubble make 550HP in 33s thats like you call not much. I would make another that goes in the way of the old Diu Bubble:

    - Hot tick with 100
    AND
    - 100 HP everytime you stand in the Bubble

    That would make the bubble stronger in 4 man groups and not so strong in 8 man groups -> You do not want to hold the bubble so long in 8 man groups and in 4 man groups you can hold them you and get some cleaves from the add groups and do not have the thinking to die. The Bubble heals more than the sch one but you have to stay.

    Celestial Opposition
    I agree until 1-2 points:

    - let the shild normal heal und make a 300% multipla ( That opens the option crit can higher the shild)
    - chance a the CD to 60 - 90s (more to 90s to have a better lineup with CU)
    -> The 2 min lineup brings nothing there because Neutral sect does not buff CO. So it make no sense to have the 120s CD

    Earthly Star and Celestial Intersection
    AGREEE^^ Until the aspect that the Shild has a power of Diu CI can be stronger than the shild from the WHM [Divine Benison]. (Celestial Intersection is now stronger than Divine Benison if the CI crits. So f.e. with the gear from Marius has the CI shild has a HP from 567^^. With your change of CI the shild has a HP from 756).
    Divine Benison can not crit so. :/
    I would not say no, but have a heart for the WHM player.^^

    Horoscope
    Off yes... The skills feel like the poor and not loved sister of Earthly Star. I would make a change that would you love more :

    Horoscope

    Reads your fortune and those of nearby party members, granting them Horoscope.
    Duration: 20s
    Effect upgraded to Horoscope Helios upon receiving the effects of Helios or Aspected Helios.
    As long you stand under the effect of Horoscope you next Helios or Aspected Helios cost no mana
    Duration: 20s
    Reading the cards a second time will restore the HP of those under either effect.
    Horoscope Cure Potency: 200
    Horoscope Helios Cure Potency: 570

    reminde: Horoscope is everytime over you make one time Helios or AH so thats should be okay. And its better than CO to pop up the effect.

    The rest is okay. I would say the same.

    BUT one thing is missing:

    Neutral sect (Diu) is better than Neutral sect (Noc). Why? Manacosts of Aspected Benefic in Noc costs much. So way not make the same mana costs under the effect of Neutral.^^
    (2)
    Last edited by Heilstos; 07-27-2019 at 04:03 AM.

  9. 07-27-2019 03:28 AM

  10. #9
    Player
    Brarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    39
    Character
    Loafberry Dumpling
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 80
    That analysis looks nice and all. The devs probably had similar thoughts when making these changes to the ast class.

    Looks good on paper. Still doesn't make it fun to play.

    The proof is really in the numbers of people playing ast after 80 and accepting ast in parties. You can analize and and rationalize all you want but people want to play a class that is interesting and fun. By the looks of it that's exactly what they are doing.
    (18)

  11. #10
    Player
    LeftHandedLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Lysar Trytin
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakugami View Post
    the majority of people who would want to play any game don't want to have 7 buttons on their bar dedicated to a system that doesn't add up enough rDPS to even bother bringing the class when the actual math is garbage, on top of the "also really bad" personal DPS
    I'm unsure if you read this part of my post, but I call out the numbers stuff specifically. I do ask for increasing the contribution to rDPS since personal DPS is very low. I haven't attempted to do the math but would love to read the findings of those that have (if anyone has). Before I have that information, I'm hesitant to make a claim that cards are a system that don't add enough rDPS. My non-knowledge is inferior to the insider-knowledge the development team had while tweaking the numbers. I'm personally just currently not equipped with enough information to decide if I need to go grab a pitch-fork.

    —————
    Divination.
    It feels very underwhelming in its current form. Much too long a cool down, and for very little benefit.

    When I try to rationalize why it was designed the way it was, I find my best theory to be related to how all existing jobs’ raid support/utility was curbed in order to make room for Dancer. I don’t doubt that math was done to ensure that the DPS gain from Arcana and Divination put AST’s overall DPS contribution (personal + cards) at a comparable level to that of WHM and SCH (though perceptively it still feels lower) but I can’t shake the feeling that Divination just feels like a poorly thrown bone.

    I’m hoping that numbers are coming back to the dev team to show that AST could use a helping hand in the rDPS department. If that’s the finding, I would very much prefer the buff to come in the form of making Divination better. I would suggest:
    - Reduce the cool down to 150 seconds (currently 180).
    - Increase the 3 Seal Type DPS boost to 8% (currently 6%).
    - Reduce Sleeve Draw cool down to 150 seconds (currently 180).
    With this arrangement, AST should still get to use Minor Arcana four times between each Divination, keeping it useful. I don't think the individual cards themselves need any buff to the DPS increase since the AST is drawing one every thirty seconds.
    —————
    (0)

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