Thread: Level-headed review of 5.0 AST

It’s much more deep rooted than mere potency values and balace tweaks. The bottom line is that an AST is expected to play at a higher APM rate than WHM or SCH to the order of 25%. Take a look at the opener mentioned in another thread here. The fact that an AST needs to use lightspeed with sleeve draw to not make themselves clip into oblivion should have massive alarm bells ringing. The fact that they gain so little for it was clearly the last call for evacuation.

This was not a redesign made by anyone who actually plays a healer in high end content. Honestly, it strikes me as a revamp cooked up by someone as a 4pm Friday night special who was more interested in what they were going to order in the pub in an hours time. It’s not slick, it’s not clever and it’s not well thought out. It’s just a bunch of reactionary changes slapped together with little to no thought given about how they will interact with each other, let alone any other job out there.

I’m not refusing to play AST because it’s potency values are low. Rather, I’m not playing it because it’s just horrible to try and optimise with at the moment.

Some of these ridiculous changes to AST just cannot be justified. The class was botched and the proof is in the pf where AST are getting locked out of a spot and every healer in every pf you browse through is a WHM. Hmm, Wonder why?

Thanks for the great post. Nice to see some lvl 80 Ast players posting in detail especially about the healing issues.

This is quite long... I hope I answered everything thoroughly. Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to try to address each point. I condensed some for the sake of length.

Originally Posted by Sylve

While fights are scripted, people are not. Its hard enough keeping DF players in range of a precast Cure III during a stack because its like they're physically repelled from one another upon receiving damage lol.

While that is the case, in organized groups for things like Extreme trials, Savage, and Ultimate, this is rarely an issue. Even in pug EX trials and Savage, people are generally good about staying in Earthly Star’s radius. There are, of course, instances where things don’t go smoothly, but that’s to be expected in a not-perfect world.

With damage being scripted, it’s also easy to know when one would need to react in the event unexpected damage occurs to a party member. If someone is clipped by something they shouldn’t have been hit by, having awareness of the fight itself will allow you to react to the situation faster and it will allow you to know what sort of reactionary measures you need to take (e.g., “There’s a raidwide/mechanic coming up, so I need to probably opt for an ED/Benefic II over just an Aspected Benefic so that they can survive the hit” or “There’s no other outgoing damage/imporant mechanic happening for quite some time, so a regen will be fine”).

Healing is still mostly proactive and should never be viewed from a reactionary point of view. I think the only time it’s reactionary is when one is initially learning the content, and reacting to the boss’s dance moves. But once the routine is learned, everything is expected and healing becomes proactive by nature. Even the unexpected healing caused by others poor awareness or moments of unintentionally spacing out.

Originally Posted by Sylve

To elaborate on why I left out Horoscope and Earthly Star, Both have minute long recasts that need to be primed/prepped before damage happens. Yes, Earthly Star is incredibly powerful ... Conditionally. It is dependant on how your party reacts to its presence.
I've dropped Star before the Stack marker in E2N only for the entire party to move out of it because the one with the stack marker stopped on the wrong side of it.

When players move out of range of the Star, yes it is frustrating. Just as it’s frustrating for them not stacking for Cure III or being too far spread for Indom. However, that being said, this doesn’t really diminish the impact of the skill itself.
In the event of tanks moving out of my Star, I simply just Rescue them back into it. I do the same thing when they move out of Asylum. If they move out again, I try to politely inform them that it’s definitely within their best interests to stay in the Star/Bubble and explain that it heals. Most are receptive, however there are the occasional jerks that continue to grief. At that point, though, Vote Dismiss is used faster than any healing tool I have at my disposal.

And I do find it a bit unfair to disqualify it and Horoscope simply because preparation is required and they have cooldown timers (personally, I don’t find them terribly long—COpp is what I’d consider long). A lot of the other skills you listed also have resources required (Rapture, Indom, Fey Blessing) or have cooldowns attached to them (Indom, Assize), so I don’t feel as if excluding Star and Horoscope is really justified here; even if the opposing skills have shorter recasts. They aren’t shorter by a terrible amount, in my opinion, so I don’t believe it makes that huge of a difference in the end.

In addition to everything being scripted: preparation is not terribly hard for either of the skills, and you would map them just as you’d map out any of the others listed. Star is usually available during each dungeon pull, for example—it’s rare that it won’t be off cooldown before a tank begins a fresh pull unless things are living way too long/dying really slowly and you’re forced to place it again due to lack of anything else. So you plan around having it there for each pull. Bosses have AOEs where you can prep deploying Horoscope, Aspected Helios after the AOE occurs, and pop it afterwards for an additional top off that the HoTs will finish (I actually used Horoscope a lot during dungeon bosses due to that—like the bat boss in Ravel and the armadillo in Malikah’s).

It’s just all thinking about healing from a planning/proactive perspective. I feel like that may be where we are differing because I’m not sure how you personally view encounters—if you view them as a timeline where you have a plan laid down for oGCDs or as something else.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Cant always just yell at people for being 'bad' too because certain party settings for animations render the Star invisible. I have a decent PC and play with most everything on max except party animations, which I turn to limited because I hate that bosses vanish into a pile of particle effects.
The only hint that theres a Star active is the dim outline of the radius marker when another AST drops it. Its easy to miss on Limited, impossible to even see at None. . . .Assize/Rapture/Indom/FB don't have that problem. Doesn't matter what the party is doing, those spells will be just as effective in every party. Not so for Earthly Star, its use is dictated by whether or not party members can even see it, let alone stand in it.
Visibility via settings is something that needs a fix too though lol.

The Limited animation ring is the same as the full, unhindered/uncalled animation ring. I keep effects on for myself, limited for party, and off for non-party; and I’ve never not seen the ring when its dropped by other ASTs that aren’t myself. Just in case you didn’t know, the indicator is still the same for it—it’s not diminished in any way.

Personally, I think for things like Star, Asylum, and Sacred Soil, the effects should never be disabled. As in they always show much like how boss effects always show. I think that’s a design the developers should definitely look into. Most systems that can run FFXIV now can stand to have those indicators showing without it affecting performance.

Originally Posted by Sylve

Also, the fact that raidwides tend to happen multiple times per minute means there are often times when neither Star or Horoscope are available.
I'd appreciate tools as an AST that aren't heavily reliant on the party understanding how my stuff works or is required to be primed before utilizing. There's a gulf between parties who understand the limitations of Star and those that don't care. Neither of the other healers suffer that.

In higher end content, most raidwides are spaced enough that there is always an oGCD heal to respond to them with: be it an AST’s Star, a SCH’s Indom, or a WHM’s Rapture. If multiple raidwides happen in short succession, generally you can judge how much damage your party takes and time oGCD heals after a certain point or you can rely on HoTs (stacked or alone) to tick up the damage without spamming heals—they generally aren’t timed between each hit.

For example, Garuda’s cleanses in UwU usually saw a spread Adlo for the initial cleanse > Indomitability for the second cleanse > AST CU or WHM Asylum to tick up the second with maybe a Medica II/Aspected on top. After the fourth Friction, she jumps, and healers can take that time (after moving for the Feather Rain mechanic), to top the party up/apply shielding in time for Aerial Blast. This happens within the span of ~30 seconds, with Aerial Blast happening about ~10 seconds afterwards. So there are always answers, it just requires coordination, which unfortunately may not be present in pugs.

In dungeons, generally HoTs + an oGCD tend to be enough for most of it, since the dungeon raidwides typically aren’t hard-hitting. With the bat boss in Ravel, I used Aspected Helios during his stompy stompy temper tantrum (I cannot recall the name of the mechanic right now...Subtonics or something like that), and the hit of it plus the HoTs were usually enough to top everyone. Afterwards, when he screeches, I would apply the HoTs if need be, but generally I could use an oGCD for that (either have Star placed and ready or utility COpp/CU).

Originally Posted by Sylve

Another example of ASTs problems with relying on Star is bosses like Tycoon. In the event someone touches the beams, our ability to respond to that is extremely limited compared to SCH and WHM. We shouldn't have to depend on the party playing perfectly.

In the event someone touches the beams, the best course of action would be for you respond with Essential Dignity. You don’t prioritize Star for one person making a mistake. If you do not have ED, you respond with a GCD: be it a regen to tick them up gradually or a Benefic I/II.

Originally Posted by Sylve

That got a bit long winded .. Sorry. But I hope it at least shows you where I'm coming from in regards to AoE healing.

As I said above, I think the discrepancies between our views is that I view healing as proactive on a timeline that I still have a script for even in the event someone in my party takes unexpected damage from “standing in the bad” (for lack of a better phrase in my sleepy mind). I’m not sure how you view healing, but I wonder if it’s different from mine, and that’s why we are at odds with some of our specific healing discussions.

Originally Posted by Sylve

On potencies specifically, I didn't say changes there would be unwelcome or unhelpful. I do agree we need better potencies and improving them will ease some of the burden.
But just straight beefing the potencies isn't really a perfect solution. We shouldn't be beholden to long cooldowns to do what the others can do at a baseline.

Originally Posted by Sylve

I would actually love to see CU have no recast. Considering it stops us from doing anything at all, being able to snap it on and off at will would be interesting.
CO's potencies look like its intended to be an AoE version of CI. The roadblock here is its cooldown. Changing that to match CI while also making it share the recast with it could be an interesting way to make it more useful without needing to just buff potencies through the roof to justify the recast.

I think there is definite room to have cooldowns reduced while also applying potency boosts—mild ones, not overpowered ones. I think both CU and COpp should see a small potency boost and their cooldowns brought down—COpp’s cooldown at the very least. Buffing CU and leaving at 90s would be fine, since it is comparable to Asylum. However, Sacred Soil is still extremely powerful, so I’m not sure how to balance against it.

With CU, since the Patch 4.4 change to allow its regen and mitigation to apply instantly, we no longer need to loiter in the bubble waiting for it to apply. Depending on its strength (should it be buffed), it could maybe see a cooldown reduction to 60s. But we also don’t want to make it too strong. I’ve seen suggestions to have the regen potency from it be 100, and the duration and recast remain the same pop up before. That way it doesn’t feel like a waste, but it also isn’t broken like it was in Stormblood. I think making it spammable would not be a good idea though. Simply because there’s rarely a reason to spam HoTs in the content in this game.

COpp most definitely needs a buff in potency and a reduction in its cooldown.

Originally Posted by Sylve

I only brought up cards due to this quote from you.
Do cards need a potency buff? Maybe. Next week will tell us if SE agrees.
I'm not sure why you'd need to hold Lightspeed to enable Sleeve Draw to be used effectively. Malefic leaves us with a full second to do a Draw. Sleeve Draw charges put Draw to 4 second recasts.
The 4 second recast on Draw means I can Malefic, draw, Malefic, Redraw/Play/MA and repeat. Lets me double weave even at my latency, but since the next card is a full 4 seconds after the last Draw, theres plenty of time to fit Malefics between fiddling with cards even without them being instant.

Lightspeed is used with Sleeve Draw because Sleeve Draw is used during a Divination window: they both have 180s recasts, and Divination is AST’s major burst window. Therefore, AST wants to try to toss out as many Minor Arcana’d cards during Divination’s duration to increase their rDPS contribution; so the two are always used in tandem. Because of this, you are constantly double weaving Draw, Minor Arcana, and Play between trying to keep up your cast times, be they Malefics, Benefics, or Helios (Always Be Casting mentality). Not employing Lightspeed during this timeframe means that you cannot double weave card actions without clipping your next GCD, which means lost damage/late healing for you. Malefic’s cast only allows for 1 weave, and Benefic II/Helios/Aspected Helios allow for 0 weaves. You need approximately 0.75s for each oGCD weave.

Personally, I think AST cards or its damage need a buff. It’s ~900 rDPS behind WHM right now, and ~400 behind SCH at the higher percentiles. It’s really painful to see the disparity between it and the other two right now.

Originally Posted by Sylve

What is truly gained by only using Sleeve Draw under Lightspeed? I'm actually genuinely curious. Aside from the obvious double weaves, of course.

There was a nice picture floating around in the Balance illustrating the branching path a Divination window could take, but I sadly cannot locate it as I am writing this up, so I will try to describe it the best I can with my words.

The general idea is that you have a Minor Arcana’d card held already in Play before deploying Divination, with Draw on CD and Sleeve Draw at the ready. After deploying Divination, you want to Sleeve Draw; then you are using Draw, Redraw if necessary (in the event you are drawing cards for roles that already have cards applied), Minor Arcana, and Play as many cards as you can during Divination’s duration so that you have buffs stacked to increase the effectiveness of the window (Divination’s 6% plus Lord/Lady 8%). Especially since it stacks with other major 180s raid buffs such as Battle Litany and Battle Voice—this only increases its effectiveness and is a DPS gain to the party.


Lightspeed is necessary to prevent GCD clipping, loss of damage, and loss of healing (if you are having to heal during this period). If you do not employ Lightspeed, you cannot double weave all the actions needed during Divination’s window to effectively maximize your raid damage. It’s actually truly horrible to do in practice and feels extremely clunky—at least, in my opinion. Opting to single-weave is a noticeable loss to your party, so you hurt them more than yourself in the long run.

As an aside, I think this is terrible design, and I abhor that LS has to be held for optimizing this window. It removes the versatility from the skill.

[QUOTE=Sylve;5106211]No apology needed. I have a terrible habit of being terrible at explaining things properly. My statement about playing all 3 was only to give you context in how I arrived at the conclusions I did. There were no allusions to your experiences intended.

I understand now where you are coming from. Glad that we could clear that up.

Originally Posted by Sylve

As for Dummy numbers, they are a part of the picture. Not the full picture, but those numbers are important regardless. They show what the job is capable of when it just sits down and does damage.
Provides a bit of a goalpost to aim for in personal optimization. Knowing the theoretical max allows one to tweak and adjust in an attempt to reach it.

In terms of personal damage, it can provide a part of the picture. However, raid damage is what is most important, in my opinion. Dummy parses cannot show raid damage; and there are jobs whose personal damage is affected by their party, which dummy parses also do not show (e.g., DNC is a big one—with no ability to Dance Partner during a dummy parse, they lose out on Esprit gain, which means they lose out on damage). Obviously, this doesn’t apply to every job, but I still think they aren’t the best method to employ when gauging damage.

Originally Posted by Sylve

By the way .. My suggestion for Neutral Sects effect to be baseline could easily be resolved by making the effect a Trait with the Sects being used to enhance one aspect over the other instead of choosing between them. Making it a high level trait eliminates the need to fix lower level quests that required a specific Sect.
It's kind of supported in the Lore based on the dialogue with Leveva in the 80 Job Quest.

Such a change is an immediate power boost for AST before any Potencies get altered.
Potencies are a problem, one I never denied.
But I still believe the root of ASTs weakness lies in underwhelming Sects.
Its been a pleasure to debate this with you though :P

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree with this. I don’t believe the different Sects hold AST back by any stretch—not as they may have in the past where they were too weak/too ineffective against their co-healer counterparts. Noct Sect still suffers from this, but I believe it can be balanced to still be viable if the developers tried. Diurnal is fairly strong on its own (as it proved in Stormblood), and I think it’s more than capable of being such in ShB. But those changes will have to come with potencies, not through Sect revamping, in my opinion.

I like that there are inter-Sect abilities, and I think they can be expanded upon. I’d love to see more in the future. But I don’t see the necessity of removing them entirely. Honestly, I’d love to see a day where I could actually use Nocturnal and not bleed myself dry; be as viable as a SCH would be. But that’s me.


I tried to answer everything, but I may have missed some things. I am quite tired. Apologies again that it is practically a novella. I am always too verbose.