Enchanted reprise as an oGCD

[Taranok]

either a OGCD or it gives us a dual cast

the move needs to be way more than just verscathe such a joke of a move

You know, if you made it dualcast and cost as much mana, or slightly less mana, as you'd get from dualcasting E.G. verthunder, it would start to be usable since it's still expensive (you're not really gaining resources) but usable (you're not really losing resources). It keeps your damage rolling but will still cost you.

I hate when people compare Scathe to Reprise.
They are drastically different.
If you absolutely can not cast as BLM, no matter what, scathe is no where near the DPS loss Reprise is.
For Scathe to be similar, it would have to actively lessen your AF/UI timer on top of the time wasted not casting.

An "actual" Verscathe should have been made. Something with a crappy 30 potency, and thats it.
Weak enough to try and land a hard cast, but something in case its absolutely impossible.

(Scathe isnt the cause of a BLMs DPS loss, but the lack of using GCDs is. In the case of Reprise, not only is it filling the GCD void like scathe, its also taking away from a resource thats too valuable. Scathes MP cost doesn't cause the same issue. (But to be fair, this might not be true anymore, as i havnt done any math on current BLM, nor looked into it.))

Just to correct you here, Scathe absolutely is a massive DPS loss. Your average fire 4 is 540 potency, Scathe is 100 with a 20% chance for 200 (so assume 120 for the sake of normalizing it). You lose 420 potency to use scathe once because you're directly competing with getting more fire 4s downrange. Even if you use it during UI, it's still delaying when you can get more fire 4s out.

In a technical sense, it's costing you 1 GCD worth of average class potency to salvage at best 200 potency (usually 100), but costing you an extra fire 4 at worst, which would be a massive DPS loss because of how singularly strong Fire 4 actually is. Even if you factor in the loss of black/white mana from using Enchanted Reprise, it would still only be in the 300-500 potency range while still salvaging 220 potency. I don't know how much potency 10 black and 10 white mana constitutes towards the RDM burst combo, but it should be incredibly and directly comparable to Scathe in terms of overall potency loss.

[Archwizard]

Tbh prolly easiest fix would be.

Take away its Cost. And make another OGCD out of it, maybe on a 10 sec CD..

Add a small white and black mana gain from it c6 and flèche. (like 10 of Each)

Take Verflare and Verholy off GCD.

Allow us to do what we do now but abit faster, this would add Engagement as it'd be a Faster rotation, we'd see our Finishers More, Rejuvernise the Old Rotation reducing how stale it will feel to some Players, without adding anymore additional abilities, creating a higher Skill Curve, or Creating Unintended Gameplay, and it'd be a buff in itself so no need to try adjust any numbers :P (unless we come out alittle too powerful ofcourse)

I don't even get the point of half of these fixes, to be honest.

The problem with making more instant skills oGCD is that you reduce the job's mobility, since we spend a greater number of GCDs casting as a result rather than having options to keep cycling the GCD while moving. Turning Reprise into a free oGCD just removes any impact it may have had from the rotation in favor of just pumping more damage in. While this may sound counterintuitive on the surface, the suggestion in the OP to have it retain a cost is actually beneficial to us, since right now overcapping Mana is a pure damage loss, where having a tool to dump that Mana before you overcap would allow you to salvage a gain.

It wouldn't affect our behavior with Engagement at all, since even as a "faster" rotation Engagement would have the same CD and Displacement would still have more output.

Also, 10 of each mana per oGCD is far from "small", especially when you're discussing adding a free 10s oGCD on top of a 25s and a 35s. In one minute that's 6 casts of Reprise, up to 3 of Fleche and 2 of Contre-Sixte -- 90-110 extra Red Mana per minute, which would over double our number of melee combos and lead to a significant DPS gain. Please don't be throwing out numbers on our main rotation when you have no intention of doing the math yourself.

I don't know how much potency 10 black and 10 white mana constitutes towards the RDM burst combo, but it should be incredibly and directly comparable to Scathe in terms of overall potency loss.

Last check on Enchanted Reprise was that it's a loss so long as it's below about 255-ish potency, between the average value of its GCD and the average value of Mana consumption. If we assume we lose about 40 potency on average per cast, it's still a fraction of the loss Scathe is at over 400 potency lost per cast in AF, and the value of its delay in UI.

So MaraD_ is right that the two are drastically different, but for reasons that aren't the point she was trying to make.

[LunarEmerald]

Red Mage improvements I'd like to see:

- Buff the potency of enchanted reprise so that it becomes your go-to whenever you're moving and you have no ogcd or dual cast available.

- Give corps-a-corps an additional charge so Red Mage can have a gap closer that isn't just used for their combo. The cooldown is too long to be used for anything but.

- Buff engagement to 200 potency so jumping back isn't always preferred. Let displacement be an option to quickly jump away, not something we're forced to use for maximum dps. Let it be a choice.

- Reduce all MP costs by 20% to go back to the same MP cost ratio we had in StormBlood. Except verraise, leave that as is.

Do those changes and the job would be nearly perfect imo.

[SaberMaxwell]

Last check on Enchanted Reprise was that it's a loss so long as it's below about 255-ish potency, between the average value of its GCD and the average value of Mana consumption. If we assume we lose about 40 potency on average per cast, it's still a fraction of the loss Scathe is at over 400 potency lost per cast in AF, and the value of its delay in UI.

So MaraD_ is right that the two are drastically different, but for reasons that aren't the point she was trying to make.

To be specific, the skill is a loss even at its original 300 potency. 255 potency is the potency it needs to even be worth looking at as opposed to the regular spell combo. It converts mana from a potency gain to a potency drain which needs to be taken into account when calculating the loss of potency as well.

It's not 400 potency loss, no, but it's significant in its own ways.

[MaraD_]

You know, if you made it dualcast and cost as much mana, or slightly less mana, as you'd get from dualcasting E.G. verthunder, it would start to be usable since it's still expensive (you're not really gaining resources) but usable (you're not really losing resources). It keeps your damage rolling but will still cost you.



Just to correct you here, Scathe absolutely is a massive DPS loss. Your average fire 4 is 540 potency, Scathe is 100 with a 20% chance for 200 (so assume 120 for the sake of normalizing it). You lose 420 potency to use scathe once because you're directly competing with getting more fire 4s downrange. Even if you use it during UI, it's still delaying when you can get more fire 4s out.

In a technical sense, it's costing you 1 GCD worth of average class potency to salvage at best 200 potency (usually 100), but costing you an extra fire 4 at worst, which would be a massive DPS loss because of how singularly strong Fire 4 actually is. Even if you factor in the loss of black/white mana from using Enchanted Reprise, it would still only be in the 300-500 potency range while still salvaging 220 potency. I don't know how much potency 10 black and 10 white mana constitutes towards the RDM burst combo, but it should be incredibly and directly comparable to Scathe in terms of overall potency loss.

Im not comparing potency lost.
Im comparing "cost".
a BLM unable to land that extra fire4, due to movement, already lost the damage, regardless if they fill in the difference with scathe or not.
The secondary cost of Scathe is the MP.

If a RDM absolutely cant cast another spell, they too will lose potency for no spells cast (much less potency than a Fire4, obviously losing fire4 is drastic)
BUT if they use reprise, they lose 20 mana.
Which, in SB 1 mana is 4.5 DPS, and can go upwards of 9DPS per mana (if im remembering correctly, but i might not be)
so thats anywhere between 90-180, depending on whats the correct number.
BUT the actual value of mana has gone up, with another spell tacked onto the end of RDMs combo, since the spell also adds mana, and does more dmg than ver holy/flare in potency.
(plus some other issues)
So depending on when it lines up, it might be possible that it does 0 dps. (i forget how much dps reprise does off hand too.)
(Someone suggested it was possible to do actual negative DPS, but i couldnt get info from that person, to know if they are correct or not)

So in theory, whats the point of a skill, that doesnt do any dps at all? (IF, and a big IF, it does 0 DPS. I ve tried to do the math, but keep getting off numbers, because im not sure the best way to calculate it. someone elses number were much closer to the actual results, and so i was relying on their info for SB)

Red Mage improvements I'd like to see:

- Buff the potency of enchanted reprise so that it becomes your go-to whenever you're moving and you have no ogcd or dual cast available.

- Give corps-a-corps an additional charge so Red Mage can have a gap closer that isn't just used for their combo. The cooldown is too long to be used for anything but.

- Buff engagement to 200 potency so jumping back isn't always preferred. Let displacement be an option to quickly jump away, not something we're forced to use for maximum dps. Let it be a choice.

- Reduce all MP costs by 20% to go back to the same MP cost ratio we had in StormBlood. Except verraise, leave that as is.

Do those changes and the job would be nearly perfect imo.

I mostly hit like for the reprise.
I actually disagree with the disengage, not because i dont want it, but because RDM was designed to have a "different" skill set. Its easier to play, but does have the unique factor of being the only DPS that has to try and fit in a jump back, to maximize its DPS. Its part of its uniqueness, and its easy playstyle easily makes up for it. (plus i personally find it extremely easy to work with, but maybe im just used to it. I can tell if i have enough room or not, w/o having to test it 1st. my raid group was always saying it was so daring in tight spots, but im like, nope, imma do et!)

[Taranok]

To be specific, the skill is a loss even at its original 300 potency. 255 potency is the potency it needs to even be worth looking at as opposed to the regular spell combo. It converts mana from a potency gain to a potency drain which needs to be taken into account when calculating the loss of potency as well.

It's not 400 potency loss, no, but it's significant in its own ways.

Yes, but my point is that if you ever use Scathe in Astral Fire, you directly sacrifice casting a fire 4 to do it, which is a massive loss in potency for doing that. Because of that, it is comparable to Enchanted Reprise because you're actively choosing to sacrifice DPS to actively salvage the GCD, and it sucks for everyone involved to use these abilities.

snippy snap

I just ran the numbers, and 20 mana is approximately 283.75 potency. So you give up 284 potency in mana plus your "standard GCD" to salvage 220 potency and the GCD. It stings, and depending on how different it is from your average GCD (not to mention your timings being messed up) it can sting more, but that puts it in similar territory to Scathe for using these abilities to salvage GCDs.

The only difference is Red Mage doesn't have remotely close to as manay isntant casts as BLM can have on demand if it needs it between Xenoglossy, Firestarter, Thundercloud, and Swift/Triplecast. And Black mage doesn't care half as much about its rotation's timing being messed up as a Red Mage.

But the point stands, the 2 are directly comparable because they both throw away substantial amounts of damage.

EDIT: To add, I didn't factor in the mana you would have gotten from Verholy/Verflare/Scorch, so that will throw up the potency loss by 1/8th of the extra added mana, approximately. Which is about 62 potency worth in opportunity cost, so you're looking at about 346 potency lost from using it to salvage 220 and the GCD. It's literally in the same ballpark as Scathe when used during AF.

[SaberMaxwell]

Yes, but my point is that if you ever use Scathe in Astral Fire, you directly sacrifice casting a fire 4 to do it, which is a massive loss in potency for doing that. Because of that, it is comparable to Enchanted Reprise because you're actively choosing to sacrifice DPS to actively salvage the GCD, and it sucks for everyone involved to use these abilities.

I'm not disagreeing. If it sounded like I was, I apologize. Your point is the same as mine more or less--E Reprise doesn't cost an active 400, but it does cost a significant amount for a Red Mage to use so it's in the same zone of "Don't look at this pretend it doesn't exist."

I just ran the numbers, and 20 mana is approximately 283.75 potency.

Mathtime! Citation.

Standard PPS for RDM is 112 (no proc) to 116 (proc) at 2.5 GCD.
The melee combo's PPS is 226.73 PPS. This means 160 mana is worth 110.4 PPS when using the melee combo due to opportunity cost of not doing the standard cast dualcast while bursting. So mana when put towards the melee combo is worth 1,115.4 potency / 160, or 9.14 potency per mana.

Enchanted Reprise's PPS is 100 (220potency / 2.2s). To use it is a loss of 16 PPS over the cast dualcast standard. 20 mana is being used for a drop in PPS by 12, so 20 mana = -35.93 potency in the case of E. Reprise. Mana put toward E. Reprise is worth -1.8 Potency per Mana.

You're losing 10.94 PPM for 20 mana, so the cost comes out to 218.8 potency from the mana alone.

[Taranok]

I'm not disagreeing. If it sounded like I was, I apologize. Your point is the same as mine more or less--E Reprise doesn't cost an active 400, but it does cost a significant amount for a Red Mage to use so it's in the same zone of "Don't look at this pretend it doesn't exist."

Or "Reserve for actually emergencies. Also, YA DUN GOOFED!"

I tried to math it out, it comes out to about 346 potency lost in mana and the opportunity cost of delaying the melee burst phase, and whatever the difference between your average potency per second and Reprise' potency per second. Which makes it about the same or slightly favorable compared to popping a Scathe in AF, since Scathe in AF is directly denying you the use of a fire 4 and nothing else (unless you screw up and F4 instead of Despair at the end). It's like they copied Scathe and said "Let's make it as bad as this to use." So it's used in extreme emergencies since salvaging the GCD will typically save more DPS than the opportunity cost would imply, but it still sucks.

[LunarEmerald]

Im not comparing potency lost.
Im comparing "cost".
a BLM unable to land that extra fire4, due to movement, already lost the damage, regardless if they fill in the difference with scathe or not.
The secondary cost of Scathe is the MP.

If a RDM absolutely cant cast another spell, they too will lose potency for no spells cast (much less potency than a Fire4, obviously losing fire4 is drastic)
BUT if they use reprise, they lose 20 mana.
Which, in SB 1 mana is 4.5 DPS, and can go upwards of 9DPS per mana (if im remembering correctly, but i might not be)
so thats anywhere between 90-180, depending on whats the correct number.
BUT the actual value of mana has gone up, with another spell tacked onto the end of RDMs combo, since the spell also adds mana, and does more dmg than ver holy/flare in potency.
(plus some other issues)
So depending on when it lines up, it might be possible that it does 0 dps. (i forget how much dps reprise does off hand too.)
(Someone suggested it was possible to do actual negative DPS, but i couldnt get info from that person, to know if they are correct or not)

So in theory, whats the point of a skill, that doesnt do any dps at all? (IF, and a big IF, it does 0 DPS. I ve tried to do the math, but keep getting off numbers, because im not sure the best way to calculate it. someone elses number were much closer to the actual results, and so i was relying on their info for SB)



I mostly hit like for the reprise.
I actually disagree with the disengage, not because i dont want it, but because RDM was designed to have a "different" skill set. Its easier to play, but does have the unique factor of being the only DPS that has to try and fit in a jump back, to maximize its DPS. Its part of its uniqueness, and its easy playstyle easily makes up for it. (plus i personally find it extremely easy to work with, but maybe im just used to it. I can tell if i have enough room or not, w/o having to test it 1st. my raid group was always saying it was so daring in tight spots, but im like, nope, imma do et!)

I just find the in and out gimmick to get old fast. For most difficult content it's best to stay grouped up together right behind the boss. Jumping around all over the place is just silly and I hate that it's required for optimum play.

[SaberMaxwell]

I edited my last response with some research and math.

I'll also cite another Balance source regarding current E. Reprise:
"Because of this, outside of extremely edge cases like being able to get in a final instant attack when you otherwise would not be able to, it is forced into exactly one use case: when you need to move for a couple seconds but can’t manipulate your slidecasting or dualcasts to allow this, and can afford being set back on your mana gauge. If you need only a minor adjustment, such as moving for ~0.5s, it is strictly better to stop casting entirely, rather than use Reprise." (Citation)