Thread: Tank comparison at 5.0?

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

tl;dr: A handful of average player's experiences are irrelevant. These things have been tested. Hard. And DRK? DRK needs help.

I love this argument so much, I don't know how many times I'm doing Titania or Innocence EX on DRK pulling 6.7-6.8k unpadded and I have GNB in my group doing 1.2k less clearly DRK needs help and it's totally not a player thing where "OMG I got out DPS'd by a DRK but I'm a GNB I should be top!!". When a tank knows how to do DPS (gonna use GNB for this) that's unpadded by a DNC and knows how to hit their buttons they'll do 7k+ vs a good DRK doing 6.8k+ and it's only 200 DPS in this example, all tanks are perfectly playable in ALL content so please stop spreading this around.

The average player needs help playing because the tanks got dumbed down they're easy to play now right?

Which tank is the most complex and interesting to play these days? I've heard GNB but I've also heard that GNB is the simplest.

Originally Posted by Awful

I love this argument so much, I don't know how many times I'm doing Titania or Innocence EX on DRK pulling 6.7-6.8k unpadded and I have GNB in my group doing 1.2k less clearly DRK needs help and it's totally not a player thing where "OMG I got out DPS'd by a DRK but I'm a GNB I should be top!!". When a tank knows how to do DPS (gonna use GNB for this) that's unpadded by a DNC and knows how to hit their buttons they'll do 7k+ vs a good DRK doing 6.8k+ and it's only 200 DPS in this example, all tanks are perfectly playable in ALL content so please stop spreading this around.

The average player needs help playing because the tanks got dumbed down they're easy to play now right?

Care to point out where I said anything about DRK not being playable? Yeah, you can't. Because I didn't. Now please simmer down instead of being disrespectful to others without provocation. Oh, and for that matter, who said the average player needs help? Again, nobody. This discussion is being held purely from a mechanical and mathematical standpoint.

That 200 DPS difference matters to people that like to play the game at a very high level, especially when you factor in DRK's lack of utility compared to the other tanks. Viability takes a backseat to efficiency; playing anything other than top tier jobs is a disservice to everyone you group with.

Originally Posted by DocQuixotic

Which tank is the most complex and interesting to play these days? I've heard GNB but I've also heard that GNB is the simplest.

GNB has the most buttons and weaving thanks to the Gnashing fang combo, but it's pretty straight forward other than that. build cartridges spend cartridges.

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Care to point out where I said anything about DRK not being playable? Yeah, you can't. Because I didn't. Now please simmer down instead of being disrespectful to others without provocation. Oh, and for that matter, who said the average player needs help? Again, nobody. This discussion is being held purely from a mechanical and mathematical standpoint.

That 200 DPS difference matters to people that like to play the game at a very high level, especially when you factor in DRK's lack of utility compared to the other tanks. Viability takes a backseat to efficiency; playing anything other than top tier jobs is a disservice to everyone you group with.

And what hard math is this? You've been spouting all this hard testing was in Whiskey Bravo's post which is indeed over 67,000 individual census here, you were the one that brought up average players skill are irrelevant but a lot of people posting about DRK literally haven't even hit max lvl, let alone go into an EX trial or Eden normal for that matter. If you look at the previous posts DRK is fine, 200 DPS indeed matters in the top tier, world first group that everyone is playing optimally, average pug groups however that's not the case which is obvious.

The thing is people will always cling to the meta and think that just because DRK doesn't have utility like PLD/WAR/GNB that you can't do anything with it which isn't true at all, we have people still thinking that PLD is MT only, WAR is a one trick pony, and DRK is the magic tank, that should tell you how people still follow these mindsets.

Originally Posted by Awful

And what hard math is this? You've been spouting all this hard testing was in Whiskey Bravo's post which is indeed over 67,000 individual census here, you were the one that brought up average players skill are irrelevant but a lot of people posting about DRK literally haven't even hit max lvl, let alone go into an EX trial or Eden normal for that matter. If you look at the previous posts DRK is fine, 200 DPS indeed matters in the top tier, world first group that everyone is playing optimally, average pug groups however that's not the case which is obvious.

The thing is people will always cling to the meta and think that just because DRK doesn't have utility like PLD/WAR/GNB that you can't do anything with it which isn't true at all, we have people still thinking that PLD is MT only, WAR is a one trick pony, and DRK is the magic tank, that should tell you how people still follow these mindsets.

The math I speak of would be the numbers the theorycrafting and high-end raiding communities came up with. They are the ones that have been (and still are) conducting the testing various individuals have spoken of. Their findings are publicly available, though it does seem quite a few people have chosen to ignore said findings in favor of acting like the sky is falling. You are correct in your assertion that DRK is not in a terrible place; it will perform adequately in all tiers of play, though it may not be ideal. Meta-clinging-behavior notwithstanding, DRK is perfectly applicable in most situations. It's functional enough that even some of the more progression-minded players will, as in times past, probably continue to play it despite the fact that its performance is slightly below that of its peers.

Despite the naysayers on the forums, it seems like the current playstyle itself is being fairly universally enjoyed. I myself really don't mind it. What I do mind is the knowledge that I and others whose groups (whether they're actually capable of it or not) like to chase the proverbial bleeding edge when it comes to PvE content are already being told that, due to this slight numbers discrepancy, we will be benched if we don't agree to main one of the other tank options. Is this right? No, probably not. That 200 DPS really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, and the comparative lack of utility can be partially compensated for by clever individuals. It would be much easier to justify the continued use of DRK if they were to bump its DPS a bit. As it lacks in utility and self-sustain, it's only right to compensate it in some other area.

Originally Posted by DocQuixotic

Which tank is the most complex and interesting to play these days? I've heard GNB but I've also heard that GNB is the simplest.

I don't know how people are arriving at the conclusion GNB is simplest to be honest. It isn't complicated by any stretch, but so far my experience is that none of the tanks really are anymore.

If you have a WAR you still have them be the MT. Their OT skill is pretty 'meh' and vengeance still has damage tied to it so you are losing damage having a WAR sideline. Doesn't mean they deal enough damage...
Right now the best damage and group comp is PLD and GNB. They deal the most damage and thier support skills are generally better than their counterparts.

Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't know how people are arriving at the conclusion GNB is simplest to be honest. It isn't complicated by any stretch, but so far my experience is that none of the tanks really are anymore.

Even in stormblood the tank were simple, WAR in 5.0 was more complex but with the new Inner release the gameplay got simplified (for better or worse)

DRK had the DA spam and a lot of double weaving and small optimization windows, the old delirium was ok (you use it to extend blood weapon and get some MP) and aside from capping MP or blood, it was hard to get punished as a DRK.

Now In ShB

DRK got revamped. The community in general feels ok about the job only asking for small potency and QoL adjustments while the forum only complains about every little thing.

WAR got more complex due to the nascent flash now. If you overlap a inner release with a infuriate its a huge dps loss. That was not a factor in SB.

PLD got one more skill in the rotation but the complexity remains kinda the same 3X atonement replaces the second Fast/Riot/Authority in your physical phase. No more shield bash but Intervene takes its place.

GNB is a new job and got a lot of buttons, you can stop your main BnB combo to start the ammo combo and continue the BnB combo. Cartridge management is intuitive but hard to master the no mercy windows. In no mercy, you always want to spend at least 3 cartridges (5 if you have the "reload") and your dots (that conveniently shares the No mercy CD).

As for the aggro combos, nobody used then in SB, only PLD and DRK on pulls
PLD was always OT so the only job who used aggro combo was DRK and only one time in the fight.
WAR had no need to use aggro combo with unchained + equilibrium opener

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

What I do mind is the knowledge that I and others whose groups (whether they're actually capable of it or not) like to chase the proverbial bleeding edge when it comes to PvE content are already being told that, due to this slight numbers discrepancy, we will be benched if we don't agree to main one of the other tank options.

Ummmm... FFlogs and Lodestone seem to paint a different picture than I'm reading here.