What about creating an ACTUAL Dark Knight?

[Shurrikhan]

All of this is really an issue of how awfully sterile the game is as a whole.

Everything is a set specific percent that doesn't scale. Defensive cooldowns should have actually scaled on a stat, or multiple stats, instead of just "Flat buff or percentage of some type". WAR used to have a few things kind of like this, and it was my favorite job.

Hell now even MP is a flat amount across the board. I've been criticizing SE for years on their completely sterile padded room of a game, well now those hens are finally coming home to roost for everyone else. They didn't know how to balance things in the extremely non-lenient system they built for themselves, so to balance they just homogenized even further.

This, for the most part. In most MMOs, you see a difference in mitigation based on your gear-proximity to the content you're trying; when you start a new raid tier with the old BiS set, you mitigate less (percentage-wise) than you did in the last tier because things now hit harder, while progressing through that tier gets you back to where you were and then further, such that you have slight improvement over the course of the expansion while also making the difference between active and passive mitigation (such as through guaranteed blocks) more pronounced. I kind of miss that when playing XIV.

[Reynhart]

In short, if it was able to go to the front row, it was a tank.

No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

[ADVSS]

No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

[Absimiliard]

End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

That was literally the only option until the remakes allowed you to swap characters at endgame. Even fully geared, Rosa and Rydia would survive between three and four hits from strong trash mobs if left in the front row. Granted, Edge's defense was garbage as well, but his melee attack at least gave you an excuse to leave him up front.

[ADVSS]

That was literally the only option until the remakes allowed you to swap characters at endgame. Even fully geared, Rosa and Rydia would survive between three and four hits from strong trash mobs if left in the front row. Granted, Edge's defense was garbage as well, but his melee attack at least gave you an excuse to leave him up front.

there was the adamantium armor, but legit farming that was not something anyone sane probably should try to do, not for full party. But yeah, I mean even in the back row those two could get 2 shot from regular mobs on the way to zeromus lol

[Lyth]

...

That's because when you climb Mount Ordeals at around level 15-20 as a Dark Knight, but you're expected to come back down as a level 1 Paladin, and they don't want you to get oneshot by monsters on the way down. Because you gain the first 10 levels or so nearly instantly, you actually have very little stat growth that happens over those levels. There's actually very little difference between a level 1 Paladin and a level 10 one. It's more for storytelling effect.

Either way, no two Final Fantasy games are alike. Shiva is a motorcycle. Ragnarok is a spaceship. The concept of "tanking" doesn't really exist in other games outside of FFXI, so what job fits what role is largely up to your imagination. Blue Mage and Dragoon could have been tanks. Paladin and Dancer could have been healers. Rather than lamenting what could have been, maybe it's worth focusing on this iteration of the game?

If anything, FFXIV has the most interesting spin on the PLD/DRK duality. In FFIV, Cecil became a Dark Knight in pledging service to Baron and its institutional corruption, but found freedom in becoming a Paladin. In FFXIV, Paladins are historically trained as bodyguards who swear oaths in service of the Sultanate. Dark Knights, on the other hand, swear allegiance to no master. Their only duty is to follow their hearts, to protect the weak against injustice, and to punish evil as they see fit. As a classically trained Paladin who switches to becoming a Dark Knight in the Brume of Ishgard, you're essentially following the same path to freedom.

"We dark knights don't care one whit for prestige or pedigree. We are free to follow our hearts─to defend the weak and punish the guilty as we see fit.
The law of the land? The authority of a name? These are tools cowards use to escape harm. We have no need of shields figurative or literal."

[MaraD_]

No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

I already said that.
Also, you had ranged attack options as the others.
Yang had Kick, not hindered by back row, edge had throw/ninjutsu, kain had jump, DRK cecil had darkness.
but your quote also doesnt counter either of us.
ranged only characters couldnt go to the front, not because the game forbid it, but because there was no benefit to it. they didnt do melee dmg, and they had no method to lower physical melee dmg.
(Also i put edge in the back row usually for bosses (using throw), and kain in the back row for xeromous, so when he used big bang, everyone would die, except kain, and he'd rez everyone back up.)

[Reynhart]

End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

Yes, does that make Dragoons and Ninjas tanks, yet ?

The concept of "tanking" doesn't really exist in other games outside of FFXI, so what job fits what role is largely up to your imagination.

Provoke and Cover are skills designed for you to take hits instead of you party member, that's the concept of tanking outside of MMO, and it existed since FF III.

In FFXIV, Paladins are historically trained as bodyguards who swear oaths in service of the Sultanate. Dark Knights, on the other hand, swear allegiance to no master. Their only duty is to follow their hearts, to protect the weak against injustice, and to punish evil as they see fit.

Which makes DRK much closer to the usual lore related to Paladins. While you roam with Sidurgu trying to protect a little girl from a corrupted church, Paladins are running around Eorzea to measure the size of their...sword.

[MaraD_]

Yes, does that make Dragoons and Ninjas tanks, yet ?

In the context of FF4, yes.
Blink was broken as heck, and Jump allowed Kain to survive Big Bang in playthroughs where you were severely under leveled.
DRGs are the most tanky jobs in all FFs with their ability to have higher than average HP, good armor, and a 100% evasion skill that also does dmg.

Put either kain or edge in the back row and they then take -50% melee dmg, while also doing dmg in the back row. (edge does more dps, due to jump taking up a turn, lowering the actual DPS. but DPS doesnt matter in a 1 on 1 scenario w/o a DPS check. As the turns in which a boss wastes attackign nothing, equate to the turn having never happened.)

Put cecil in the back row, and he's just a bad healer. (i tried this for my low level play through, he could survive big bang on occasion, but was too useless back there.)
Kain and Edge were beasts as tanks compared to cecil, when maximizing potential.
Cecil is just more straight forward, and "easier" to just take hits, since there's no set up for him.

Provoke and Cover are skills designed for you to take hits instead of you party member, that's the concept of tanking outside of MMO, and it existed since FF III.

Provoke yes, though useless outside of FFX. Cover, not so much, since its too rare of an occurrence, which cant be properly controlled. Its better suited for offense.
put on a slow character with massive attack power, given counter attack, then put in a MNK who can easily get to low HP. (like FF6)
It COULD act as an actual means to protect allies from damage in the future games, like it does in XIV.
But you'd protect the squishies far more by sticking them in the back row in FF4. Putting non squishies in the front row. Thats the most effective tactic for protecting them from dmg.
tanking fundamentally from game design, is the job of being defensive. healers and tank are technically the same role, from a game design perspective.
but like how melee and casters are sub roles of DPS, tanks and healers are sub roles of defense.
so simply lowering dmg others take, is the equivalent of tanking (as its mostly mitigation, and someone being dedicated towards mitigation. while healers are less about mitigation, but HP going back up.)
So While Cover and Provoek are "tanking methods" its not from directly mitigating dmg, but indirectly mitigating dmg.
The spell of Protect counts as mitigation and "tanking" and so does having to force someone to the front row, where row slots are a limited resource.

So in the end, yes NIN and DRGs tank.
(also depends on the game too, as both are more than qualified to be designed as such. Just like most jobs)

[Reynhart]

DRGs are the most tanky jobs in all FFs with their ability to have higher than average HP, good armor, and a 100% evasion skill that also does dmg.

The first attribute of a tank is to focus all attacks on him, what MMO call enmity. In that regard, DRG are the absolute worst tank precisely because they force the ennemy to hit somebody else.

Put cecil in the back row, and he's just a bad healer. (i tried this for my low level play through, he could survive big bang on occasion, but was too useless back there.)

Put Cecil in the back row, and he only take scratch damage, far lower than his capacity to heal himsel, which is why a Cecil solo run is just a piece of cake.

Provoke yes, though useless outside of FFX.

It was always useful to make sure weaker characters don't take hits.

Cover, not so much, since its too rare of an occurrence, which cant be properly controlled. Its better suited for offense.

In FFIV, you can manually decide who you want to Cover, on top of automatically Covering anyone with critical HP, again, ensuring that weaker target don't take too much hits.

It COULD act as an actual means to protect allies from damage in the future games, like it does in XIV.

It does, it always did.

But you'd protect the squishies far more by sticking them in the back row in FF4. Putting non squishies in the front row. Thats the most effective tactic for protecting them from dmg.

Back row characters still take damage. If they're at critical HP, they would still die if not covered.