What about creating an ACTUAL Dark Knight?

[ADVSS]

A minus strike like a reverse spirits within, would be cool, if there was a combo between the original Blood for blood(now called lance charge) and bloodbath+convalesence, where lowered defense was offset by higher hp gains from healing(and life taps) i dont really see that making them "awfuller" at tanking in some regards. Perhaps the idea of using hp is off limits as a tank, but they could do more lifetapping/and even lower defense for a short time for more damage. But im pretty sure the route they want tanks to be at, less of the self heals/lifetaps, and more reliance on healers. I dont really like that route but im sure lots of people prefer it, probably healers

IMO, the Dark Knight as a solo-type role has always been about trading HP for DMG and then having some ways of stealing that HP back again. However as a multi-player type role, the Dark Knight seems better suited to being a debuffer class. Just my thoughts.

If they were hellbent on this magic tank idea, DRK should have been given a dot spell that drains hp/tick(tarpit for pve?), Theres so many things they could have thematically given them, that would def draw a distinct line between the tanks, this current iteration though, is the byproduct of what once was a really unique tank, that offered so much what the others didnt, despite it being slightly clunky and out of place, then they just took everything off their kit and divvied it around to the other tanks. Since we got nothing left, they could now just give it its own flavor. And get rid of the term "delirium" that skill is cursed. I love berserk, but come on-that was the hw inspiration, this thing we got now resembles nothing of that job.

[HumanNinjaToo]

And then get hit by an AOE and die, making the healer ress you. Next!

And that's where the high-risk/high-reward part comes into play. If you are good at the job and aware of the mechanics at play in the moment, you survive the AOE by getting out of the way. People are already making poor decisions and getting killed by AOE and needing healer to ress them, so...

If they were hellbent on this magic tank idea, DRK should have been given a dot spell that drains hp/tick(tarpit for pve?), Theres so many things they could have thematically given them, that would def draw a distinct line between the tanks, this current iteration though, is the byproduct of what once was a really unique tank, that offered so much what the others didnt, despite it being slightly clunky and out of place, then they just took everything off their kit and divvied it around to the other tanks. Since we got nothing left, they could now just give it its own flavor. And get rid of the term "delirium" that skill is cursed. I love berserk, but come on-that was the hw inspiration, this thing we got now resembles nothing of that job.

Unfortunately, I never got to see the older versions of DRK in action. I first got this game when HW came out, but only played for a month. I hear a lot of people saying the job was more unique earlier on. Dark Knight has always been a class/role that's held my fascination in every game I play in which it makes an appearance. I am so close to having the job unlocked now. I really don't know what to expect with it at this point though. Some people are saying that 5.1 may bring changes to DRK, I guess we'll see.

[Aluja89]

And that's where the high-risk/high-reward part comes into play. If you are good at the job and aware of the mechanics at play in the moment, you survive the AOE by getting out of the way. People are already making poor decisions and getting killed by AOE and needing healer to ress them, so...

Would this kind of DRK have a self sustain? If not then it's just going to bother the healer since the tank is always the primary focus, which is why it could potentially work.

[Reynhart]

The problem with a DRK sacrificing its HP is the risk of dying when big hits come.
So what if, instead of having mitigation oGCD, he had HP refill ones ?

He could have skills like the current Thrill Of Battle or TBN, that could compensate for having lower HP most of the time, or even a skill to swap HP with someone that could also be used to give a good portion of HP back to the MT when you're the OT, or a Drain line of spells. And, instead of having GCD that would heal you (Like SoulEater, Clemency, Storm's Path, etc...), he would have GCD that would mitigate damage, so roughly the reverse concept of how tanks play right now.

[SakiKojiro]

I'd like if Living dead instead set your HP to 1, and gave you a shield of blood like the size of your HP bar that would eat hits instead of your HP, but it takes up actual space in your HP bar so you're unable to be healed until you take damage again.

[ADVSS]

I'd like if Living dead instead set your HP to 1, and gave you a shield of blood like the size of your HP bar that would eat hits instead of your HP, but it takes up actual space in your HP bar so you're unable to be healed until you take damage again.

I'm not sure I follow entirely, but it sounds interesting..does the rehealing apply to the first hit chipped off of the shielding, or does that mean you cant be healed until your health hits 1 again?

The problem with a DRK sacrificing its HP is the risk of dying when big hits come.
So what if, instead of having mitigation oGCD, he had HP refill ones ?

He could have skills like the current Thrill Of Battle or TBN, that could compensate for having lower HP most of the time, or even a skill to swap HP with someone that could also be used to give a good portion of HP back to the MT when you're the OT, or a Drain line of spells. And, instead of having GCD that would heal you (Like SoulEater, Clemency, Storm's Path, etc...), he would have GCD that would mitigate damage, so roughly the reverse concept of how tanks play right now.

I agree with you but I'm a little on the fence. This was literally 2.0 WAR and as cool as it was, it was a nightmare to heal imo. But again, during 2.0 levelling WAR I didnt believe DRK was ever going to be a job, because 2.0 WAR was pretty much how I thought DRK would be like as a ff14 job. I was def wrong come HW(but by then we were having discussions of new tanks they might add), but WAR did get that work in 2.1 which took a lot of those things away from it. TBF, the identity problem between the two might actually be stemmed from early dev hindsight, but idk, Your idea makes sense, but then theres WAR original identity. A hard sell for sure. I get why they made the 2 so similar this time around, but its totally just not in good taste to me.

Drain line of spells would be great though. Its too bad they took debuffing away from tanks, they couldve made cc or more utility-like debuffs work, but thats not how the meta is sadly.

[Reynhart]

This was literally 2.0 WAR and as cool as it was, it was a nightmare to heal imo.

In 2.0, WAR had literally one "mitigation" skill with Thrill Of Battle. The increase in healing received wasn't even tied to Defiance but to rage, which forced them to not use Inner Beast. PLD would have been a nightmare to heal too if it only had rampart and Shield Oath didn't reduced damage by itself.

[ADVSS]

In 2.0, WAR had literally one "mitigation" skill with Thrill Of Battle. The increase in healing received wasn't even tied to Defiance but to rage, which forced them to not use Inner Beast. PLD would have been a nightmare to heal too if it only had rampart and Shield Oath didn't reduced damage by itself.

Youre absolutely right, but pre fix the hp fluctuated so chaotically at times, it was like watching a good HW or SB DRK's mp gauge during a big pull, and was crazy. At times you didnt know when to heal, or not(youd def heal because you dint want them to die at all) but then this idea, paired along with yours:

Sacrifice HP. Gain defense. Now the HoT placed on you is no longer overhealing and the following tankbuster won't one-shot you, so long as you're topped off before it.

How does that "make no sense whatsoever" for a tank action? You're literally smoothing out damage intake, exploiting lulls in damage to prevent spikes.

Paired with a now streamlined defensive kit, would definately work. The question now would be all about tuning it - pretty possible I think.

Oh man Cecil Harvey, FF4... I could go on and on about that one. For instance how its stats were deliberately halted around level 50 or so, max hp around 5k at 99, etc. The fact that every character was put in as a drkcecil if you recruited them before their time (dummy/placeholder char/ stats too). Even more hillarious is that PLD cecil and DRK cecil seem to be most likely 2 different characters entirely(you cannot beat zeromus without having PLD cecil in your party. Its a wipe, and game over during the crystal of light part) Ah man, to be fair to add to this, i wouldnt rely too much about the drk cecil stats, they very deliberatedly made it worse on purpose. Most definately the 1 will stat the entirity of its levelling, which was magic defense, i think? (magic tank my :kupo

[Rakshazi]

Mates, mates! Chill. Structurize what you don't like about the way DRK plays now and make the proposals about every point in the structure, so this tread won't fall in the ANOTHER living dead only conversation, somewhat like this:
- We can't rewrite the lore, so it stays the same: DRK must draw his power from the darkness/abyss type of magick
- What resource he need to utilize his kit that will come to play as the PRICE of said drak/abysall powers?
- What he must do to replenish said resources?
- What the main theme of his skills/spells should be to feel apropriate with resource usage/management?
- How those skills/spells will come in play as TANK oriented?

For example I can bring you this answers:
- Resource: as BLM utilizes a lot of mana in his black magick so must do DRK. I think it will be apropriate to mana be the main resource and with each cast/usage of spel/skilll the next SAME one will need to cost more, just as BLM's "Fire".
- Resource replenish: I think to create a PRICE for usage of the black/dark/abysall powers would be HP. For example - he uses all of his mana for the rotation or some costly skill/spell, to replenish it he will neeed to sarcrifice like... 20-30% of his MAX HP. Ofcourse we will need to have a skill in the rotation, that will give us the meanings to replenish said HP via combat. Thus we will need to manage our DPS output to stay alive and dealing damage, balancing the need for mana and HP.
- The main theme of the skills will not change to much:the power that DRAINS your mana dry if you will not find the way to sip it's power from the others (enemies, but not always). So the DRK will apear more like vampire knight or some. For example we can make him to drain HP from the foe (like now, but add a bit more vapiric touch to the skill rotation) or drain MP from his allyes (yo, bard, I need your mana, boots and bike).
- About tank orientation of the kit: he will, obiously, need the powers to protect himself and the allies in the battle, but this is quite easy to do even with our present enmity generation and shields. Like any other tank he will need the invulnerability, so we come to the Living Dead problem. I think if Living Dead will just allow us to not fall behind 1HP it's OK, but to make it work MORE LIKE the actual DRK (and to follow his new theme) we can make that he will NOT recieve any healing from ANY source, but his own skillsas drain. Make him actualy go full DEAD BERZERK, give him "Haste" and/or "Immunity to CC" during this "Undead rage" so he can DRAIN LIFE WITH EVERY SKILL/SPELL HE HAVE and, if in the end of the LD time he manages to cure some amount of HP he will be alive and recieve the HP of the amount he drained. The SE can even give us some gauge that will show us how much we have drained. This will actualy make DRK look more sinister and DARK (lol) and make his DPS windows a lot more predictable (have the mana - use it till it dry out and then some and if someone will try to hit you hard (LD windows) you will become only stronger and bleed them out).

[Nedkel]

I wish DRK would have an extra deffensive cooldown to play with, because that what we have now is simply underwhelming.

Dark mind is unnecessary ability, it serves little to no purpose since TBN is taking its place in any tank buster there is.
I would change it to the ability which heals us off for 20% of received damage (shield and hp).
It will make a great synergy with the TBN.