What about creating an ACTUAL Dark Knight?

[Valic]

Can this thread die now lol.

[MaraD_]

Can this thread die now lol.

You cant kill that which is already dead.

[DemonicNeko]

You know, these "high-risk high-reward" tanky jobs that sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves or deliver strong blows?
That literally steals vitality from their foes to survive?
Makes shield out of their foes' blood?
That do ACTUAL DARK STUFF.

Does is speaks to anybody?
Or is that just me? '^'

Honestly they have no idea what to do with DRK. We can see that with it being an emo warrior. I like the idea of us being a high risk high reward tank. With a very high ceiling. If funny how you brought up using our own hp as a tool to do abilities and using the enemies life to aid us. The level 30-50 dark knight story. Really gave me that feeling of a dark knight true power is. You use your life ether to slay your enemies. Yet killing enemies you suck the life ether out of their dying bodies to feel your dark parts.

So kinda like a vampire/demon tank. Yet we are not drinking blood or eating souls. We are draining their life forces.

Tanks can't sacrifice HP because a majority of the playerbase sucks. Is basically what I'm getting from you.

Probably why they trivialized enmity management.

So basically the traditional concept of a Dark Knight is perpetually dead. Nice.

Totally not true. It just out side of Main Story. Square is really lacking on ideas. Which sadly that really all I do now. As the game play is pretty bland. Would be nice if we got something new and exciting to do. When a Paladin, Warrior and Dark Knight all play exactly the same. It feels real bad we have to ever play gunbreaker or dps to get some more exciting game play. Tanks this expansion suck.

optionj 1 to 3 kills scholar bubble
ask for an adjustment to tena to make it a viable stats so we can stack suvival instead of dps

Option 1 is just changing the MP cost to an hp cost for The Blackest Night. Which I would love this change. Making sure to pop it at the right right time. None of this. "oops I missed the tank buster so I am going pop Blackest Night to cover for the healers." That would just ko us. Would bring a new level of play to the class.

[MaraD_]

Option 1 is just changing the MP cost to an hp cost for The Blackest Night. Which I would love this change. Making sure to pop it at the right right time. None of this. "oops I missed the tank buster so I am going pop Blackest Night to cover for the healers." That would just ko us. Would bring a new level of play to the class.

Plus it feels more in line with the idea a DRK has to sacrifice defense, rather then their own offense. If you fail to pop TBN, you lose MP/offense. For this version u make TBN less effective, since it cost HP to begin with.

When I make my own content, and design classes with roles, I try to make them capable of mostly the same stuff, but they have things they "struggle" with, and things that are nearly passive for them.
For tanks its Mitigation, Threat, and DPS.
So I'd split the tanks as follows;
Tank:______Passive:____________Requires a lot of effort to equal the others:
TANK#1_____Threat is easy__________Mitigation is hard to maintain.
TANK#2_____Threat________________DPS
TANK#3_____DPS__________________Mitigation
TANK#4_____DPS__________________threat
TANK#5_____Mitigation______________DPS
TANK#6_____Mitigation______________threat
TANK#7_____Neutral on all 3.
(there's more combinations, but you get the idea)

DRK should be in the "Mitigation is what they have to work for, it doesnt come easily." category. Tank #1 or #3 (#3 if you look at how dark side used to work, and that WARs have always generated the most threat.)
Right now, all tanks have instant 1 button press mitigation they can fall back on. WAR was the closest, with storms path at one point having a -10% dmg taken at the end of a combo.
Then Inner Beast was part of a gauge they have to actively build up, but it came at the cost of DPS. (not the best way to handle that, but the closest thing FFXIV had to my example.)
This system would bring some variation based on what it is you have a preference for.
The current tanks generate threat passively w/o effort. And the current tanks have something between neutral and passive for mitigation, as it requires a button press, but hardly requires much effort, other than making CDs line up with tank busters.
DPSing as a tank is roughly neutral, with minimal effort to keep DPS up. (Though some might make some arguments based on which tank they find harder, such as the longer rotation of a PLD, or wanting to save MP for TBN/bursting TBN on DRK, which hurts DRKs DPS)

[Danelo]

I like the idea of having somethings tied to you hp pool but self-sustain already lags behind for DRK. If SE wants to do this I'd like to see more self-sustain tools built in to accommodate this shift.

[Lyth]

Attacks that cost HP or that do more damage at lower HP may be "high risk, high reward," but the risk and the resource expenditure is shifted from the player to their healer. In a single player game where you control all of your party members, this is fine, because you have control of both sides of this. In an MMO setting, though, it doesn't work as a job theme. You'd end up deliberately throwing yourself into harm's way for more dps while your healer picks up after you.

The one area that you can work on is the lifesteal angle, as per Final Fantasy Tactics.

[MaraD_]

Attacks that cost HP or that do more damage at lower HP may be "high risk, high reward," but the risk and the resource expenditure is shifted from the player to their healer. In a single player game where you control all of your party members, this is fine, because you have control of both sides of this. In an MMO setting, though, it doesn't work as a job theme. You'd end up deliberately throwing yourself into harm's way for more dps while your healer picks up after you.

The one area that you can work on is the lifesteal angle, as per Final Fantasy Tactics.

I agree with this, but just to clarify, thats not quite what they meant.
But I do agree this style isnt the best thing to do in an MMO, and not just for the reasons you mentioned.
(Thinks on it, actually, I think I just came up with a work around, to make that work. *goes to write that down for personal use*)

[HumanNinjaToo]

You know, these "high-risk high-reward" tanky jobs that sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves or deliver strong blows?
That literally steals vitality from their foes to survive?
Makes shield out of their foes' blood?
That do ACTUAL DARK STUFF.

Does is speaks to anybody?
Or is that just me? '^'

First I have to say that I have never DRK in FF14, so I am basing my thoughts on what I think it should do. To me it seems that DRK would have been better served as a DPS class that focused on sacrificing life to deal exponential dmg. So that DRK did not have to rely on a healer to function properly, I would think that DRK's rotation would build up to losing health overtime, not as a DoT, but as each skill sacrifices a little bit more HP until the final skill in rotation would actually sap a great deal of HP from the target(s). This is where I think the strategy would come into play: making sure the target(s) have enough HP so that the DRK gets something back. And I mean that if you used this rotation against a dying mob or group of mobs, then their would not be sufficient HP to sap and DRK would not get all the HP they spent back. Other risk would be giving yourself enough time to complete the rotation before getting hit and killed due to having low HP. I may even go so far as suggest that once initiated, the DRK rotation would not allow for the DRK to be healed by any means other than completing the rotation, or canceling the rotation (this way a healer would not be able to play safety net, and the DRK rotation would remain high-risk/high-reward).

I could see DRK being a more viable tank be allowing similar tactics to what I described, except that the gain of the DRK, as opposed to being dmg used by the DRK against mobs, would instead be a buff transferred to the rest of the party (or maybe a target DPS role). I could see DRK becoming a tank that utilizes debuffs as opposed to dealing high amounts of dmg. I think causing debuffs on the enemy (i.e. blind, MP/HP DoT, stun, etc.) would still fit into the tank role of gaining enmity, while keeping away from becoming the "ultimate tank/DPS hybrid" role.


IMO, the Dark Knight as a solo-type role has always been about trading HP for DMG and then having some ways of stealing that HP back again. However as a multi-player type role, the Dark Knight seems better suited to being a debuffer class. Just my thoughts.

[Aluja89]

First I have to say that I have never DRK in FF14, so I am basing my thoughts on what I think it should do. To me it seems that DRK would have been better served as a DPS class that focused on sacrificing life to deal exponential dmg. So that DRK did not have to rely on a healer to function properly

And then get hit by an AOE and die, making the healer ress you. Next!

[battleshadow66]

You know, these "high-risk high-reward" tanky jobs that sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves or deliver strong blows?
That literally steals vitality from their foes to survive?
Makes shield out of their foes' blood?
That do ACTUAL DARK STUFF.

Does is speaks to anybody?
Or is that just me? '^'

That version of Dark Knight has never existed. The job was literally a melee heavy hitter that could use an ability called "Darkness" to use its own HP to hit all enemies.