SAM improvements that needed in the next patch.

[Ayrie]

Okay, let's clear this up very clearly: I am not attacking you, your character, or your dog/cat/whatever. I am attacking your point. Your point has been that Iaijutsu/Tsubame having a 1.3 cast time in some way hinders Samurai DPS enough that it needs to be changed from cast to instant activation. You have supported your point with referencing movement-heavy mechanics forcing you to interrupt those skills as they cast, thus lowering the DPS numbers down to a level which becomes a hindrance to the job.

I have countered your point with: this is not the problem you're making it out to be, and I support the status quo (the 1.3 second cast time). I have supported my claim with: movement clipping (moving before cast is completed and still completing the cast), rotation adjusting (buying time with Hikaze - Jinpu/Shifu before Iaijutsu), and even accounting for ability cast (by staying in to complete the cast and then moving). I've also supported my claim with "working as intended" by referencing other classes that still do well with heavier casts (black mage, healers, anyone with a cast bar).

In the absence of a good point to make to rebut my position, you started arguing for: subject matter experts to restate your gripes, claims that I am not a SAM main thus have no knowledge, and that I somehow just do not understand how things work. This is a pretty poor way to lead an argument, but seems to be the typical go-to instead of conceding the point and moving on to other points that were originally valid, like: our gap closer has a Kenki cost, cooldown, and a single charge. Adjusting that skill to be less bothersome with requirements would have been something I would have agreed with!

Instead... you doubled down on the personal attacks by trying to shame me with insulting you. Which, fine, your argument style... but again, not going to win very many minds when the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim that something is broken.

I did engage in hyperbole when I said that mechanic heavy phases reduce dps to 0, under your assertion, because you still have Enpi and other such skills. But your assertion is that not having that time to Iaijutsu/Tsubame is so destructive to the operation of the class that it is worth reworking (removing the cast time).

Again, I am not engaging in personal attacks here, but you have. I am simply trying to engage your points. I mean, maybe you'll learn something about spell cast clipping and predicting enemy cast times to help further optimize your decisions in the fight. Seems there was a fundamental misunderstanding about how casting work, and how you can "cheat the system" to get a bit more.

[Zeonx]

Samurai should of gotten progressively better not degraded, new expansion new stuff new strengths.

its like mechanist it was a junk job I hear its awesome.

I get the whole new monsters stronger area's thing but when you notice something is wrong with your characters movements on job something is wrong, people get used to a certain speed then will notice it if it changes.

[cactuarzzzz]

Okay, let's clear this up very clearly: I am not attacking you, your character, or your dog/cat/whatever. I am attacking your point. Your point has been that Iaijutsu/Tsubame having a 1.3 cast time in some way hinders Samurai DPS enough that it needs to be changed from cast to instant activation. You have supported your point with referencing movement-heavy mechanics forcing you to interrupt those skills as they cast, thus lowering the DPS numbers down to a level which becomes a hindrance to the job.

I have countered your point with: this is not the problem you're making it out to be, and I support the status quo (the 1.3 second cast time). I have supported my claim with: movement clipping (moving before cast is completed and still completing the cast), rotation adjusting (buying time with Hikaze - Jinpu/Shifu before Iaijutsu), and even accounting for ability cast (by staying in to complete the cast and then moving). I've also supported my claim with "working as intended" by referencing other classes that still do well with heavier casts (black mage, healers, anyone with a cast bar).

In the absence of a good point to make to rebut my position, you started arguing for: subject matter experts to restate your gripes, claims that I am not a SAM main thus have no knowledge, and that I somehow just do not understand how things work. This is a pretty poor way to lead an argument, but seems to be the typical go-to instead of conceding the point and moving on to other points that were originally valid, like: our gap closer has a Kenki cost, cooldown, and a single charge. Adjusting that skill to be less bothersome with requirements would have been something I would have agreed with!

Instead... you doubled down on the personal attacks by trying to shame me with insulting you. Which, fine, your argument style... but again, not going to win very many minds when the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim that something is broken.

I did engage in hyperbole when I said that mechanic heavy phases reduce dps to 0, under your assertion, because you still have Enpi and other such skills. But your assertion is that not having that time to Iaijutsu/Tsubame is so destructive to the operation of the class that it is worth reworking (removing the cast time).

Again, I am not engaging in personal attacks here, but you have. I am simply trying to engage your points. I mean, maybe you'll learn something about spell cast clipping and predicting enemy cast times to help further optimize your decisions in the fight. Seems there was a fundamental misunderstanding about how casting work, and how you can "cheat the system" to get a bit more.

1.Your complaining so far : Why don't I endue and adjust when an improvement could fix it?
2.It is Hakaze not Hikaze.

[cactuarzzzz]

Okay, let's clear this up very clearly: I am not attacking you, your character, or your dog/cat/whatever. I am attacking your point. Your point has been that Iaijutsu/Tsubame having a 1.3 cast time in some way hinders Samurai DPS enough that it needs to be changed from cast to instant activation. You have supported your point with referencing movement-heavy mechanics forcing you to interrupt those skills as they cast, thus lowering the DPS numbers down to a level which becomes a hindrance to the job.

I have countered your point with: this is not the problem you're making it out to be, and I support the status quo (the 1.3 second cast time). I have supported my claim with: movement clipping (moving before cast is completed and still completing the cast), rotation adjusting (buying time with Hikaze - Jinpu/Shifu before Iaijutsu), and even accounting for ability cast (by staying in to complete the cast and then moving). I've also supported my claim with "working as intended" by referencing other classes that still do well with heavier casts (black mage, healers, anyone with a cast bar).

In the absence of a good point to make to rebut my position, you started arguing for: subject matter experts to restate your gripes, claims that I am not a SAM main thus have no knowledge, and that I somehow just do not understand how things work. This is a pretty poor way to lead an argument, but seems to be the typical go-to instead of conceding the point and moving on to other points that were originally valid, like: our gap closer has a Kenki cost, cooldown, and a single charge. Adjusting that skill to be less bothersome with requirements would have been something I would have agreed with!

Instead... you doubled down on the personal attacks by trying to shame me with insulting you. Which, fine, your argument style... but again, not going to win very many minds when the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim that something is broken.

I did engage in hyperbole when I said that mechanic heavy phases reduce dps to 0, under your assertion, because you still have Enpi and other such skills. But your assertion is that not having that time to Iaijutsu/Tsubame is so destructive to the operation of the class that it is worth reworking (removing the cast time).

3.I don't understand how could SAM could seriously get compare to BLM,Healers.
4.Healer and caster rarely need to concern themselve with a point blank circle aoe around the boss. But it is a daily live of SAM.
5.While Healer and Caster have Swiftcast ,Surecast or ability that next cast have a chance to instant cast SAM have none of that.
6.When boss follow Tank more than 3 Y it cancel Midare and Higanbana which is rarely problem to a Ranged Caster.
7.If you want to compare SAM with other class compare them to their fellow melee dps.

[Ayrie]

Okay, we're itemizing now... fortunately there is a limit post, so we both should run out pretty soon!

1) If every class is just hit button every x seconds, what separates them, and how would Y class feel different from Z? See WoW... you pick the class that has performance over style, because they've all been reduced to the same. Iaijutsu and Tsubame are just two expressions of unique job expression.

2) Okay, congrats, you corrected spelling. 1) You knew what I meant. 2) Does nothing to detract from any statement other than I am bad at spelling

3) You're item of contention is cast bars. If 2 cast timers ruin Samurai, how does BLM, WHM, SCH, AST, and to a large extent RDM and SMN deal with those cast times for a much LARGER percentage of their damage/healing contribution?

4) This is a hyperbole statement. All players deal with AoE's, casters could say the same about the donut mechanic. These are hardly so disruptive that at-tier raid groups forego melee.

5) Nope, instead you have a rotation where 80%+ of your abilities that provide the largest portions of your overall damage are instant cast. Literally 1 to 3 1.3 second casts across the entirety of what Samurai does: Midare, Tsubame, Higanbana.

6) Usually these moves are telegraphed, and most of them are scripted. A little situational awareness will tell you that normally, you're safe to cast and then respond. You will generally have that much time.

7) Samurai beats them all, currently, at end game. So why are we fixing it right now for the next patch? You may have a case of Black Mage being too high vs Samurai in certain situations, but being that most of their damage is cast-based... it doesn't go far at all to proving your point of Iaijutsu/Tsubame having a cast time adversely impacts Samurai to a point that it needs to be adjusted.

[Darus]

SAM is a point blank black mage. It's how the class moves and feels and honestly feels AMAZING. It sounds like to me that it's just not a class you have synergy with if you're not enjoying the casting of Iaijutsu.

Yaten and Gyoten are honestly not that necessary early on. It's all early content and SAM barely touches it considering it starts at 50. Removing kenki cost is kinda pointless and removes the tactical considerations of the abilities.

Hagakure was improved into Ikishoten. It was a rather pointless ability in my opinion, messed up my rotation if I tried to use it.

Meditation is amazing, Shoha feels weak but it just makes an amazing ability more amazing. A sign of a good SAM is how fast they enter meditation between phases of a boss fight.

Kenki honestly floods in if you understand SAM, I have trouble managing it at times due to overflow. If you get the positionals, kenki is absolutely raining down.

SAM is a class that has the intrigue of operating like a black mage at times and being quick at other times. It has a means to close in quickly (enpi+gyoten) and is intended for 50+ content. The casting of Iaijustu is the trait of SAM that make it a unique class and adds to the feel and sense of power. Removing the cast time would mean that the damage would need to be reduced as well. A balanced skill judges time, output, and risk together, removing a risk or requirement would require it to be also be balanced into a lower output. That said, MCH and BRD both became like black mages during Heavensward and it was TERRIBLE. Every attack was a cast. This was changed for 2 reasons. First of all, it did not flow with a class not intended for it and was overused. Secondly it made them operate as casters, defeating the purpose of separate classes. SAM is different because it uses cast attacks on occasion and does it up close. Being able to manage this makes it one of the top scoring DPS in the game.

If you don't like the class's quirks, you are probably not going to be able to properly enjoy that style of class. Trying to take away the Samurai's cast is like trying to take away the Black Mage's cast time. Players of both classes generally prefer gigantic damage with cast times rather than weak attacks with none.

[Xyr]

Make Shoha do the same as Omnislash in dota2!

[Ayrie]

I am not fan-boi'ing Samurai by any extent. I've always liked the class for what it is. Iaijutsu definitely gives it that anime-power-up feel which they are definitely trying to strike there. There are genuine issues with a few QoL things involving the class: gap closer is garbage (it isn't THAT bad, but the Kenki cost makes it frustrating at times), Shoha is our signature skill that is so situational and hardly noticeable, low level skill learning is really... weird. I think most of the low-level abilities revolve around a 1 and 2 combo with like... no real Kenki support. You don't get any closer until 30, and cannot even think of Midare until 50 (Higanbana at 30, the AoE at 40). Jarring when you sync down into lower dungeons!

But these are just material gripes... not worth chasing when classes like Ninja, Dancer, and AST are ailing and genuinely need some help.

Edit: honestly, Shoha and Tsubame should have been switched in level learning. Shoha at 80 is just... a disappointment for what you actually get out of it. Tsubame would have been a much better way to close ShB skill progression. But, we do get to enjoy it earlier!

[Tlachtga]

I don't know why you'd want the best gapcloser in the game to be downgraded into a crappy charge system. Hard disagree on that.

All SAM really needs is more dmg and for Shoha to actually do something. DRG and MNK shouldn't be nipping at their heels in terms of dps.

[TankHunter678]

Changing Iajutsu from a cast time to instant does almost nothing because you still have to deal with the fact it is on the GCD anyways. Not to mention that after 70% of the cast, which is not even a full second, you get protection from interrupts allowing you to move and complete the hit regardless. Also removing the cast time removes flavor and thematic elements from the class. I would rather not see a class lose that after what AST went through.