Crossover events and breaking immersion

[TheMightyMollusk]

Which boss we talking about here exactly? Neir?

That'd be Omega.

[Valic]

That'd be Omega.

Oh, you mean the allagan created sentinel designed to oppress entities such as primals or giant dragons that grew out of the allagan's reach of control to bind/destroy? It's almost as if an ancient society based on technological advances and study of aether developed a mechanism to traverse the boundaries of time and space in an attempt to better understand their own kind, other worlds, and better themselves to preserve their race/knowledge. Can't imagine a dragon that can travel beyond stars and dimensions(Midgardsomr) that's so powerful it threatened existence to said race and forced their hand to use Omega to track it down and neutralize it.

I'm paraphrasing immensely here because I actually didn't enjoy Omega as a raid until Alphascape 2.0 where it actually used our game's lore rather than just feeding fan service bosses and using the writing as a scapegoat(again, another case where the writing may be crap, but it still works?). Regardless, you get the point here... It's not that SIRfarfetch'd enough that a race eons ago created something to develop their knowledge beyond their star/universe to both protect them and advance their technology. If there's anything I did admire out of Omega, it was not only the tale about Omega tracking down Middy, but the fact it kinda ties the other FF's together with his existence into this game.... Where, again, multiple universes exist with magic, mechas, and so on.

I don't believe he actually had power to bring anything to life. We fought inside an area of his creation using data it's collected over generation and dimensions. It uses that data to simulate pain and the ideas of life that was programmed for it to understand. It also used that data to invent concepts/ideas of the bosses we fought by using stories and etc to develop how they may or may not act and what powers/potential they would be capable of. Considering we have white mages in the past bringing about golems and reanimating structures, as well as earth monsters and mammets.... I can only imagine it's not that far off a machine that has learned to adapt and evolve has learned a basic fundamental understanding of how aether in our world works, comprises our bodies/forms, and how to manipulate it enough to create what he is capable of creating(which is basically anything minus a soul, which is why Alpha is such an outstanding character in that plot line as it somehow developed a soul whereas Omega and all its creations had none).

TL;DR: Flying magitek robot can create phony objects that can walk, talk, act, and pretend to be a thing, but like itself, they will never truly be give "life". And as far as coming from outer space, no it's come from farther places than just there my friend and reasonably so.

EDIT: Strike the majority of that tbh, I'm a moron and forgot the whole story apparently and its 3 am for me lol. Point still stands though.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Oh, you mean the allagan created sentinel designed to oppress entities such as primals or giant dragons that grew out of the allagan's reach of control to bind/destroy? It's almost as if an ancient society based on technological advances and study of aether developed a mechanism to traverse the boundaries of time and space in an attempt to better understand their own kind, other worlds, and better themselves to preserve their race/knowledge. Can't imagine a dragon that can travel beyond stars and dimensions(Midgardsomr) that's so powerful it threatened existence to said race and forced their hand to use Omega to track it down and neutralize it.

I'm paraphrasing immensely here because I actually didn't enjoy Omega as a rid until 2.0+ where it actually used our game's lore rather than just feeding fan service bosses and using the writing as a scapegoat(again, another case where the writing may be crap, but it still works?). Regardless, you get the point here... It's not that SIRfarfetch'd enough that a race eons ago created something to develop their knowledge beyond their star/universe to both protect them and advance their technology. If there's anything I did admire out of Omega, it was not only the tale about Omega tracking down Middy, but the fact it kinda ties the other FF's together with his existence into this game.... Where, again, multiple universes exist with magic, mechas, and so on.

Omega is not an Allagan creation, they (as far as we know) never went past orbit, and they never figured out time travel (that's Alexander's thing, and he came about long after Allag fell). The Allagans lost track of "bettering themselves" long before their fall when they fell into rampant hedonism and abused their technology in increasingly horrific ways. Midgardsormr had no known interactions with the Allagans at all, and they did not send Omega to track him anywhere; nor would they have to send Omega beyond the stars, since both Middy and Omega were already on Hydaelyn before the Allagan Empire ever arose. Midgardsormr never "threatened existence", he fell here as a refugee after Omega wiped out his planet.

Please rewatch the cut scenes for the Omega raid before you try to use them as a talking point.

[Valic]

Omega is not an Allagan creation, they (as far as we know) never went past orbit, and they never figured out time travel (that's Alexander's thing, and he came about long after Allag fell). The Allagans lost track of "bettering themselves" long before their fall when they fell into rampant hedonism and abused their technology in increasingly horrific ways. Midgardsormr had no known interactions with the Allagans at all, and they did not send Omega to track him anywhere; nor would they have to send Omega beyond the stars, since both Middy and Omega were already on Hydaelyn before the Allagan Empire ever arose. Midgardsormr never "threatened existence", he fell here as a refugee after Omega wiped out his planet.

Please rewatch the cut scenes for the Omega raid before you try to use them as a talking point.

That's what I wanted to see. Disregarding me being an idiot and forgetting the entirety of the Omega raid story... My point stands, you understand what it is and it doesn't really break immersion from the game considering how the universe works so far. All people have to do is read to understand and bam, immersion saved. Maybe I'm mixing up something to do with Ultima but I swear I thought there was something to do with Omega being something to do with Allag, maybe because I'm relating Nero in all this and the fact we found the dang control pad in Mor Dhona, I forget tbh.... Again though, considering how you laid it out, it doesn't sound very "out of this world" for this game.

You actually help my point tho. This is in XIV's lore, He is literally the plot to Sonic Battle. Where an ancient race created a being of insane power for whatever purposes that came to life to search for his own meaning to life. Literally sonic battle or any sicfi plot since the dawn of time. When you look at it that way I don't see how people complain about a car not fitting when omega is literally one of the basics of all sicfi plots accross many stories and games.. one being mega man or Sonic the hedgehog. I bring those up cause putting those two games next to XIV looks insane. But what do you know.. XIV is using the same plots as those two games did and many more before it. I'm just saying it's not that far off when you step back and see everything for what it is. It just feels like people look at XIV and think - IT'S OLD ENGLISH TIMES- when it's really not... it's not even set on earth for that to make sense. I shorten the qoute cause this forum sucks.

Disregard most of my post tbh, I'm sleepy and apparently forgot the entire plot of the damn thing... In any case, I think we are in agreement then and prolly didn't pick up on the possible sarcasm. I know people who genuinely act like Omega is this "lolwow" thing like it doesn't belong at all (though I wish it was written better). I personally don't relate the things you mention to FFXIV, but you're on point with "how can we say its immersion breaking when its like this?" type deal. Also, you can post and edit a post right after to go beyond the character post limit on these forums.... I agree they suck >_>;

[monk-dps]

That's what I wanted to see. Disregarding me being an idiot and forgetting the entirety of the Omega raid story... My point stands, you understand what it is and it doesn't really break immersion from the game considering how the universe works so far. All people have to do is read to understand and bam, immersion saved. Maybe I'm mixing up something to do with Ultima but I swear I thought there was something to do with Omega being something to do with Allag, maybe because I'm relating Nero in all this and the fact we found the dang control pad in Mor Dhona, I forget tbh.... Again though, considering how you laid it out, it doesn't sound very "out of this world" for this game.




Disregard most of my post tbh, I'm sleepy and apparently forgot the entire plot of the damn thing... In any case, I think we are in agreement then and prolly didn't pick up on the possible sarcasm. I know people who genuinely act like Omega is this "lolwow" thing like it doesn't belong at all (though I wish it was written better). I personally don't relate the things you mention to FFXIV, but you're on point with "how can we say its immersion breaking when its like this?" type deal. Also, you can post and edit a post right after to go beyond the character post limit on these forums.... I agree they suck >_>;

lol yeah I think I missed the edits and stuff.. but yes we're on the same page

[Shurrikhan]

Omega is not an Allagan creation, they (as far as we know) never went past orbit, and they never figured out time travel (that's Alexander's thing, and he came about long after Allag fell). The Allagans lost track of "bettering themselves" long before their fall when they fell into rampant hedonism and abused their technology in increasingly horrific ways. Midgardsormr had no known interactions with the Allagans at all, and they did not send Omega to track him anywhere; nor would they have to send Omega beyond the stars, since both Middy and Omega were already on Hydaelyn before the Allagan Empire ever arose. Midgardsormr never "threatened existence", he fell here as a refugee after Omega wiped out his planet.

Please rewatch the cut scenes for the Omega raid before you try to use them as a talking point.

Given how closely that ties to the star creature of XIV's launch cinematic and who takes reference from the very area ARR all begins (Carteneu Flats or however it's spelled)... that hardly makes Omega Weapon as distant from XIV's world and story as, say, the NieR crossover.

And that's not even because it's NieR or because it's got the bosses and aesthetics and characters it does, it's just because it has nearly zero explanation or fit for having ended up in the XIV world. Had we just discovered the city it out in the Light Waste in a temporal pocket caused by some antipolar reaction whatchamahavit to Cid and the CE's breaking time where it briefly shows the distant future of the First Shard after the fall of humanity, or whatever else it might take to actually make its place in XIV's story compelling, there'd be no issue.

But there wasn't. We just meet some brats, go down a mine, blow up some doors, and discover a city down there because... why? and how?... Who knows.

[purgatori]

Given how closely that ties to the star creature of XIV's launch cinematic and who takes reference from the very area ARR all begins (Carteneu Flats or however it's spelled)... that hardly makes Omega Weapon as distant from XIV's world and story as, say, the NieR crossover.

And that's not even because it's NieR or because it's got the bosses and aesthetics and characters it does, it's just because it has nearly zero explanation or fit for having ended up in the XIV world. Had we just discovered the city it out in the Light Waste in a temporal pocket caused by some antipolar reaction whatchamahavit to Cid and the CE's breaking time where it briefly shows the distant future of the First Shard after the fall of humanity, or whatever else it might take to actually make its place in XIV's story compelling, there'd be no issue.

But there wasn't. We just meet some brats, go down a mine, blow up some doors, and discover a city down there because... why? and how?... Who knows.

That's less a crossover thing than a Yoko Taro thing. New players in NieR Automata had no idea what was going on until much later in the game, and, even then, didn't really know what was going on until they were several playthroughs deep. Those of us who had come from the original NieR were even more confused. Those who came from Drakengard to the original NieR were mightily confused as well. This is the way... But some things will be explained with time.

[Valic]

Given how closely that ties to the star creature of XIV's launch cinematic and who takes reference from the very area ARR all begins (Carteneu Flats or however it's spelled)... that hardly makes Omega Weapon as distant from XIV's world and story as, say, the NieR crossover.

And that's not even because it's NieR or because it's got the bosses and aesthetics and characters it does, it's just because it has nearly zero explanation or fit for having ended up in the XIV world. Had we just discovered the city it out in the Light Waste in a temporal pocket caused by some antipolar reaction whatchamahavit to Cid and the CE's breaking time where it briefly shows the distant future of the First Shard after the fall of humanity, or whatever else it might take to actually make its place in XIV's story compelling, there'd be no issue.

But there wasn't. We just meet some brats, go down a mine, blow up some doors, and discover a city down there because... why? and how?... Who knows.

You're kinda jumping the gun a lil too though, we literally don't have the full story. In fact, what we have so far is literally "we dunno anything that's going on but we need to find out". I don't find it that hard to believe on a separate world of existence beyond our own plane that we find ancient mechanical constructs and designs hidden beneath the planet in some fashion. Heck, if we can act like the crystal tower is just there in Mor Dhona for a while until you do the raid and realize there's actually an entire society and so on in there... Who says there can't be a locked away chamber on the First that's been dormant for centuries and is awakening because- TO BE CONTINUED.

lol yeah I think I missed the edits and stuff.. but yes we're on the same page

Saw that last post, and I agree entirely. People forget FF as a series has involved both fantasy and sci-fi in a shared environment.

[Shurrikhan]

You're kinda jumping the gun a lil too though, we literally don't have the full story. In fact, what we have so far is literally "we dunno anything that's going on but we need to find out".

What you add to something should -- or more often, needs -- to play to the rules of the thing it's being added to, though. If the game you're adding the content to consistently provides some level of foreshadowing, connectedness, or whatever other form of lead-up to its events, then it's sensible that what you add to the game from elsewhere ought to do the same.

There will of course be some shock and awe figures that are only explained later, like Midgardsormr, some room for twists and the like. But simply throwing players into another franchise inconsistent with all that's come before it, sharing no references, patterns, or themes, is not setup for a twist. It's just a lack of effort that ignores the game surrounding it. That's not subversion; it's neglect.

I love NieR. I like that there's a crossover for it, even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline, rather than merely borrowing the poster children of another franchise in place of coming up with something of our own. But the shallow means by which it's been attached to the game isn't even worth defending, imo. Fun enough raid, but an incredibly poor effort to connect it to XIV.