2.5s Recast/GCD feels wayyy too long.

[Roshidon1]

I have no idea what you just said tbh. If I didn't know any better I'd say you are arguing semantics.

[Xyr]

I have no idea what you just said tbh. If I didn't know any better I'd say you are arguing semantics.

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

[Kabooa]

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

*looks at Dark Souls*

*looks at Camera*

[Powercow]

you can define actions per minute as any button press from the player, but thats nor really relevant when talking about gcds in games. or how much the player has to do.

by your definition, a fighting game where you press two buttons at the same time to throw is two actions, or irl, taking one step is like 100 actions. It may be true by your definition, but then its a pointless statement, its like defining beats per minute of a song, by the number of notes in song and not the pace of the song. his point is the gcd makes the game feel sluggish. if your version of apm doesnt represent speed or pacing, its not really relevant

"How much stuff you have to do in a game is not relevant to how much you have to do in a game." 'kay.

So in case you honestly don't get it and aren't just trolling me -- the complaint about the GCD stems from the belief that the game's combat is slow. The combat being slow would be because you have little input between the player and the game. The main method of input is button presses. Can we agree on this?

Unnecessary button presses, like jumping mid-combo or twitching back and forth, are technically input but don't actually result in you doing your role better. We can discard those, since you can do that in any game and they're equally pointless in all of them. What matters is button presses that do result in you doing your job better -- in the case a DPS job in FFXIV, this means doing more damage over time. Can we agree to these terms?

If you press a buff, like, say, "Ten" on Ninja, it counts as an action. Pressing the Ninjutsu button also counts as an action, as you'll throw a shuriken. While not absolutely required, following it "Ten" with "Chi" will result in two actions, with the Ninjutsu button being a third. This results in objectively more damage, and by the standards of the wider video game community, is therefore the correct way to play a DPS role. Can we agree on this, or is my arbitrary definition of "more damage" not something you agree with?

Similarly, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Aeolian Edge" you will do three actions and damage. However, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Q" or "E" or "left control stick" to move behind the enemy before then hitting "Aeolian Edge", you will do objectively do more damage, while doing it in the same amount of time. In terms of "damage per second" this results in an increase by pressing a fourth button. This is therefore considered by the wider video game community as the correct way to play a DPS role. The latter series of actions includes 33% more actions -- a significant increase.

And yeah, people do consider multi-button combos as multiple actions and not just one. It's like saying games with autocombos are somehow faster paced to play than games with manual combos. Pressing "X" 15 times in a row is objectively slower gameplay than pressing the 30-40 buttons and stick directions to manually do the exact same combo in the exact same time.

If you want to talk about the general pace of combat, as in how often the boss does actions and how often you need to break for mechanics or change up what you're doing then... sure we can have that conversation, preferably in its own thread because it has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.

And stop with the strawman arguments, holy crap. It's embarrassing you.

[Powercow]

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

I know you don't like the "logs" argument but, no yeah we're going there. The reason you think there's such a long time in between actions is because you're doing it wrong. A 1.8s downtime per action would mean an APM of ~33, which is miserably low. Not even counting positionals, it should be about 40 (and that's WITH boss mechanics and forced downtime.) If you're moving to hit your positionals, Samurai would be closer to 50.

Before you hid them (because you don't want to improve?) you weren't even doing 33, you were floating at ~30. You could be hitting 30% more buttons and still be behind other Samurai. This leads me to believe that your belief about the pace of combat being slow has more to do with you not knowing how to play the job at its maximum, and less to do with the game or job.

[Xyr]

I know you don't like the "logs" argument but, no yeah we're going there. The reason you think there's such a long time in between actions is because you're doing it wrong. A 1.8s downtime per action would mean an APM of ~33, which is miserably low. Not even counting positionals, it should be about 40 (and that's WITH boss mechanics and forced downtime.) If you're moving to hit your positionals, Samurai would be closer to 50.

Before you hid them (because you don't want to improve?) you weren't even doing 33, you were floating at ~30. You could be hitting 30% more buttons and still be behind other Samurai. This leads me to believe that your belief about the pace of combat being slow has more to do with you not knowing how to play the job at its maximum, and less to do with the game or job.

That's why I only counted skills, and if you read the skills I posted, I counted all possible skills used within 1 minute + all oGCD skills possibly used given the possible amount of Kenki. 33 is a very good estimate at 95-100% uptime, and it is dully low. Not counting movement(which exists in almost every game, fps, moba, etc). My APM in moba can go upward of 100-200, if I count all the movements, there are only 4 skills to use, so does that mean it's a good combat system? Maybe FFXIV should only have 4 skills then. Movements don't count as they do not make the combat flow better.

[Powercow]

That's why I only counted skills, and if you read the skills I posted, I counted all possible skills used within 1 minute + all oGCD skills possibly used given the possible amount of Kenki. 33 is a very good estimate at 95-100% uptime, and it is dully low. Not counting movement(which exists in almost every game, fps, moba, etc). My APM in moba can go upward of 100-200, if I count all the movements, there are only 4 skills to use, so does that mean it's a good combat system? Maybe FFXIV should only have 4 skills then. Movements don't count as they do not make the combat flow better.

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

[Xyr]

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

Except I already accounted for extra Kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

Hakaze - 5
Shifu - 5
Kasha - 10
Jinpu - 5
Gekko - 10
Yukikaze - 15

So going through your list:
5 5 10 5 5 - 10 - 5 15 10 - - 10 10 - 5 5 10 5 5 10 - 5 = 135


That's 135 Kenki from GCD skills. So where did you get 105 from? If you can't even add up numbers correctly, what makes you think you're doing your rotation correctly?

I made sure to quote you before you go back and edit it, just for posterity.

Also -- 23 GCD skills takes 60 seconds? With a GCD of 2.13, which is what my undergeared Samurai has at 70 (and I don't even have Enhanced Shifu) 23 GCDs would take (2.13 * 23 =) 48.99 seconds. You know Midare and Higanbana's GCD starts at the start of the cast, not the end right? So they're not taking longer than anything else. I can't personally test Tsubame since I'm not at that level, but even adding in the 1.8s cast time from that you seem to be missing about 9.3 seconds. Remember, this is my crappy gear with essentially no Skillspeed, no Enhanced Shifu. What are you doing the rest of the time?

Hit max post limit today so I'm going to edit this one. This is the first post you actually said something other than "You ain't doing it right, logs"

I started out with 2.5s GCD for the rotation, 2.5*23 = 57.5 seconds, because not everybody has 13% speed. Afterwards, I accounted for the 13% skill speed in the post and increased the action counts,, it is below the rotations. Also, I use rotation from balance discord. http://ffxivrotations.com/24az So you can see I didn't just pull it out of nowhere. The only difference between this and mine is potion usage and meditate. As for 105 vs 135 kenki, I might've made a typo putting it into the calculator. However, regardless, it's not enough to make a massive difference in combat style.

I am genuinely curious after reading some of your posts but do you even like FFXIV? Every post you have made you make it sound like all the other MMOs out there are far superior to FFXIV in every way.

Getting back on topic though, I'm surprised you think that SMN feels slow with the new changes in ShB. With the amount of ogcd weaving from regular SMN skills + pet skills, it feels incredibly fast paced at times and I don't see how the job could play with a faster GCD.

In regards to SAM, it could also very well be that this job is not for you, and therefore feels like it plays slow/bad.

Having played faster GCD games, I don't think a faster GCD = better gameplay because the end result is usually the same smashing of 1-4 buttons, similar to your MOBA example. But trying to compare a MOBA to a MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges. They play entirely differently and have different pace to gameplay.

I like the game in every aspect except combat, balance, and job diversity.

[Powercow]

In one minute, 24 GCD skills can be used, note Midare/Higan/Tsubame all have a 1.5s cast time + 2.5s recast.

Listing the GCD skills:

Hakaze ->Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Higanbana -> Gekko -> Hakaze -> Yukikaze -> Kasha(Meikyo 1) -> Midare -> Tsubame Gaeshi -> Kasha(MeiKyo 2) -> Gekko (Meikyo 3) -> Midare -> Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko -> Midare -> Hakaze

With 13% haste selfbuff, this takes ~60 seconds.


That's a gain of 105 Kenki from GCD skills in 1 minute + Ikishoten 50 per minute - Senei 25 per minute - 4 Kaiten 80 per minute - 2 Shinten 50 kenki per minute.

Hakaze - 5
Shifu - 5
Kasha - 10
Jinpu - 5
Gekko - 10
Yukikaze - 15

So going through your list:
5 5 10 5 5 - 10 - 5 15 10 - - 10 10 - 5 5 10 5 5 10 - 5 = 135

Except I already accounted for extra kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

That's 135 Kenki from GCD skills. So where did you get 105 from? If you can't even add up numbers correctly, what makes you think you're doing your rotation correctly?

I made sure to quote you before you go back and edit it, just for posterity.

Also -- 23 GCD skills takes 60 seconds? With a GCD of 2.13, which is what my undergeared Samurai has at 70 (and I don't even have Enhanced Shifu) 23 GCDs would take (2.13 * 23 =) 48.99 seconds. You know Midare and Higanbana's GCD starts at the start of the cast, not the end right? So they're not taking longer than anything else. I can't personally test Tsubame since I'm not at that level, but even adding in the 1.8s cast time from that you seem to be missing about 9.3 seconds. Remember, this is my crappy gear with essentially no Skillspeed, no Enhanced Shifu. What are you doing the rest of the time?

[Avyiur]

Except I already accounted for extra kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

I am genuinely curious after reading some of your posts but do you even like FFXIV? Every post you have made you make it sound like all the other MMOs out there are far superior to FFXIV in every way.

Getting back on topic though, I'm surprised you think that SMN feels slow with the new changes in ShB. With the amount of ogcd weaving from regular SMN skills + pet skills, it feels incredibly fast paced at times and I don't see how the job could play with a faster GCD.

In regards to SAM, it could also very well be that this job is not for you, and therefore feels like it plays slow/bad.

Having played faster GCD games, I don't think a faster GCD = better gameplay because the end result is usually the same smashing of 1-4 buttons, similar to your MOBA example. But trying to compare a MOBA to a MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges. They play entirely differently and have different pace to gameplay.