White Mage Overflow

[EaMett]

Can I just point out how funny it is that the early prediction for ShB healers after the jobs showcases were that WHM was still going to be terrible compared to the sheer utility of SCH and AST?

Sorry but that wasn’t the case. The complaints around whm after the media tour were mostly: it still not having an ogcd dps skill for less clunkiness in the gameplay and the question of whether or not the pDPS was going to make up for the rDPS of the other healers.
It was also said that regardless of all that whm would be a good option during prog just like it did during SB despite it not being meta back then.

[Hezzlocks]

Sorry but that wasn’t the case. The complaints around whm after the media tour were mostly: it still not having an ogcd dps skill for less clunkiness in the gameplay and the question of whether or not the pDPS was going to make up for the rDPS of the other healers.
It was also said that regardless of all that whm would be a good option during prog just like it did during SB despite it not being meta back then.

Just saying, but according to these forums, utility = things that make other people do more damage. Since, y'know, damage is everything to the people here. So... when you say people were worried that WHM pDPS wouldn't match up with the other's rDPS... kinda the same thing

[EaMett]

In EX Trails average dps difference between WHM and SCH is far closer to double than tripple 469, and in the Eden raid it's fairly close to 469.
This already was predicted, the more healing and movement needed the better SCH is going to do.

It’s a little hard to compare things like this because you need healers to be on par skill wise (preferably without padding) and as far as raid dps goes you need a consistent level throughout your party.

It will also vary based on skill tier since rDPS is less likely to drop as significantly as pDPS in lower tiers.

But if you take an optimized and consistent setting to check actual job potential then whm pDPS contribution is about double that of sch CS. Both in eden and ex trials at the moment.

Of course these are all really easy fights so that gap might close a bit in savage but afflatus really gives whm more mobility so it shouldn’t be that big of a gap closer.

[aiqa]

It’s a little hard to compare things like this because you need healers to be on par skill wise (preferably without padding) and as far as raid dps goes you need a consistent level throughout your party.

It will also vary based on skill tier since rDPS is less likely to drop as significantly as pDPS in lower tiers.

But if you take an optimized and consistent setting to check actual job potential then whm pDPS contribution is about double that of sch CS. Both in eden and ex trials at the moment.

Of course these are all really easy fights so that gap might close a bit in savage but afflatus really gives whm more mobility so it shouldn’t be that big of a gap closer.

It's difficult to compare individuals, but statistics will just average out eventually.
When looking at any reasonable percentile at fflog I am not seeing such big differences.
And assuming both healers contribute the same to HPS I am not also seeing where doubling the DPS would come from from a rotation point of view.

[EaMett]

It's difficult to compare individuals, but statistics will just average out eventually.
When looking at any reasonable percentile at fflog I am not seeing such big differences.
And assuming both healers contribute the same to HPS I am not also seeing where doubling the DPS would come from from a rotation point of view.

Healers will never contribute the same HPS because of the way toolkits are set up. Afflatus when used properly is a dps gain so in a WHM/SCH comp WHM heals take precedence over scholars. Order priority should be afflatus heal + ogcd weave > then sch ogcd > then WHM ogcd without afflatus > then sch gcd > then WHM gcd. You should almost never hit the last part. Currently, given how low the healing requirement is, this means WHM do a huge chunk of the healing.

And again, as far as job potential and balance goes you should only concern yourself with top tier optimized play. In which WHM is ahead by a landslide. FFlogs actually introduced raid dps today and it's become clear that in upper tiers WHM is ahead overall by about 800 dps (that's 800 ahead of pdps and rdps combined for sch). So that would be double what CS brings (and mind you this is in a context where the parties leverages CS to it's max).

That gap is reduced at lower tiers because the lower the skill the better CS is compared to your personal DPS. But again it's a little weird to look at those for job comparison since players aren't optimized. If you don't understand how afflatus skills benefit you and should be used, that's more telling of the class design than it is the class balance, for example.

[Dynia]

...

what did I just read, WHM was always aoe burst healer, always have good mana managment and had good dps without any utility, THEY ARE SAME LIKE THEY WERE IN SB with few new skills, so stop tell is op ok ?
astro and scholar was too op for too long time and whm was way behind, that why ppls talking now that whm is op after sch and astro nerfs

and how about don't bring back old sch ok ? this class was was too op overall ...
and how about don't bring back old astro's op buffs ? everybody fished for balance and spear any way, you have now balance in every card so ? ...

[Hezzlocks]

and how about don't bring back old astro's op buffs ? everybody fished for balance and spear any way, you have now balance in every card so ? ...

I've never played Astro so I don't exactly know how they played, but to me it always looked like Astro cards were pure RNG, you either scored with Balance or Arrow, or you flopped hard with things like, uhh, whatever that green one was? I don't know. But I always see people hating on RNG in other classes like Dancer or old Machinist or old Bard, not that I've ever had any issue with them myself, but it's somehow good on Astro? I dunno, like I said I've never played Astro, but it's weird people want the old RNG back.

[Billythepancake]

I've never played Astro so I don't exactly know how they played, but to me it always looked like Astro cards were pure RNG, you either scored with Balance or Arrow, or you flopped hard with things like, uhh, whatever that green one was? I don't know. But I always see people hating on RNG in other classes like Dancer or old Machinist or old Bard, not that I've ever had any issue with them myself, but it's somehow good on Astro? I dunno, like I said I've never played Astro, but it's weird people want the old RNG back.

People only complained about RNG when it came to optimization, at least when it came to AST. The difference was, no matter what card AST got, it was useful, to varying degrees, sure, but useful. Meanwhile BRD was at the mercy of its RNG because that determined whether they got to do their combos or not. For casual content and for progging, Astros want their buffs back because DPS isnt always the best thing in a scenario, unless you're going for optimization, in which case,yes, ASTs were plenty annoyed when they didnt get a spread balance or spread spear at least.

[galbsadi]

what did I just read, WHM was always aoe burst healer, always have good mana managment and had good dps without any utility, THEY ARE SAME LIKE THEY WERE IN SB with few new skills, so stop tell is op ok ?

Interesting way to describe giving them basically all of SCH's Aetherflow skills without having to use Aetherflow and in addition to all the skills they already had and with a nice burst attack for using them. Also, WHM never used to out-DPS any tank at the same level, whereas now they out-DPS all of them. (Now, if you lost Tetra and Bene and Asylum required a lily then you might start to feel the SCH pain.)

I could say "SCH is the same as it was in SB with several fewer skills" and be equally accurate...but in both cases, those skills are important.

astro and scholar was too op for too long time and whm was way behind, that why ppls talking now that whm is op after sch and astro nerfs

AST was never really OP...ever. This can also be seen in that AST and WHM had pretty similar raid representation in every raid where they existed. SCH was, granted, slightly overtuned when they attempted to fix the mistakes they made overnerfing them in early SB, but "too OP" is a joke at best. I'll repeat what I've said earlier elsewhere: while SCH and AST have always held a raid spot before due to shielding, if it wasn't for the fact that WHM have only one shield, the meta would become WHM/WHM or WHM/extra DPS, and if no other changes happen, even with WHM only having one shield it might eventually become that way anyhow.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

It's actually somewhat baffling that people will claim SCH and AST were never OP before, just because it's undertuned right now. The reason why these changes hit AST and SCH in the first place is because they were so incredibly strong, and the reason why WHM was left alone was because it had nothing OP to rework. If that's not telling you something then I don't know what to say.

AST needs some buffs and maybe SCH as well, but please don't claim these jobs were never OP and that WHM was always a fine job when it was struggling with any kind of identity or raid spot for 4 years.