Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Drayos]

Number of subs doesn't have to do with being modern, and enough with the subs. The whole thing with subs is just such a cop out, "There's subs therefore it is perfect." Which is nowhere near true. Quite frankly, SE knows what modern standards are. They make their FF games based off such standards, they themselves knows and FFXIV SHB is not even up to par of FFXV, and at this point I'm tired of arguing about it, at the end of the day, what's important is that SE knows, it doesn't matter some people subjectively thinks they want in a game as that has nothing to do with modernness.

the game is very modernised lol, its simply just a different approach to the Genre, there is Nothing but a few minor things realistically which dont feel modern, the fact it doesnt carbon copy WoW doesnt make it not modern.

Heres the simple thing, WoW has reached a point where they've admitted they cant even balance the game anymore due to how much there is now to balance, Which prolly means they'll pull the plug on New class introductions and even if they dont, we all know its going to go sour because they're making their own Admitted problems worse. talent systems arent modern, they were around the MMO Genre before FFXIVs creation.

"FFXIV isnt uptoo par with FFXV" this is your opinon, and its pretty normal for Single Player games to Offer higher "standards" then MMOs in some areas, it has always been that way.

Let's not start with the "Game x has action combat, game x failed, therefore action combat failed." bullcrap, because then I'm just going to claim WoW failed because of GCD therefore we should get rid of GCD in FFXIV. And we all know FFXV's combat was one of its upsides, it certainly did not fail because of it. Not to mention it sold 2.5mil copies on the ps4 alone.

FF7R's combat system has similarities to the old system, but so what? Every hack n slash game can be said to be similar to the oldest hack n slash system, that doesn't mean Diablo 1 and devil may cry 5 are on the same level of modernness. Did you actually see the FF7R gameplay? It's looks like a fusion of several different systems blending together seamlessly, the combat is smooth and has good flow, it's quick whehttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/398501-Almost-every-complaint-about-the-ShB-job-changes-could-be-solved-with-talents/page15n need bursting, and you land good combos to recharge faster, they are clearly trying something new and fairly modern... I don't know why you are being sarcastic, FF7R is really not helping your case.

Action combat lol, Theres ENOUGH action combat MMORPGs in existance, we again Do not need another Action combat MMORPG and while There are PLENTY of good things to say about Action combat, its Simply not for this game.

I played Tera, ESO, GW2 and more with more Action based combat ( i didnt rly try the prime of it though with BDOs combat and things though tbh) and theres Plenty of Enjoyment to have. but i dont feel Tab Target Combat or Hotbar Combat is "outdated" its just a different style of the genre, and thats what it needs, I wish people would stop trying to turn every MMORPG into a Action combat based Game, they dont need to ALL do the same thing to be "modern"

theres like 5 MMORPGS with action combat, with like another 5 on the way, i dont get why we feel FFXIV also needs to take the action combat Route :P.

[Shurrikhan]

Oops I deleted my comment because I misread and thought that the OP was comparing it to WoW lol.

I think that '' Illusion of choice '' is exactly what I'd call the talent system in current WoW.
Vanilla was a bit all over the place, it was a lot more chaotic than it is today because most people were so new to MMO's. But Vanilla did have some more varied builds as far as I remember altho they revolved more around a strong niche.
In current WoW tho it's basically '' do you wanna take the shitty talent, or do you want to take the good/ least bad one? ''.

You might want to play the game you're talking about at something like a decently high level before you spout off this stuff. The difference between one talent and another, unless specifically bringing a single-target talent to an AoE fight or vice versa, averages to within a fraction of a percent. Some are more vital, or better play upon the strength of the spec, and therefore become nearly obligatory, but are even then very closely balanced and the less favored talents usually have niche uses or party pacings at which they outperform the conventional talent sets.

Yes, in WoW, especially until recently, a Prot Warrior should have Unstoppable Force and Bolster, but that's only because there's only certain niche situations in which the spec itself, until recently, was worth taking over other tanks, which those talents aided far better than other talents; that would still be the case even if the other talents were overpowered by comparison. But that's not, then, an issue of the talents so much as it is innately specialized class choices (i.e. leaving so much choice of toolkit to one's class selection rather than the talents available to that class), something we don't have in as much severity here where, for instance, tanks are far more homogenized.

[Zerathor]

I really don't want average players to have an additional opportunity to do everything wrong in their settup and rotations. They're already more than capable of doing so and dragging down a party.

[Drayos]

You might want to play the game you're talking about at something like a decently high level before you spout off this stuff. The difference between one talent and another, unless specifically bringing a single-target talent to an AoE fight or vice versa, averages to within a fraction of a percent. Some are more vital, or better play upon the strength of the spec, and therefore become nearly obligatory, but are even then very closely balanced and the less favored talents usually have niche uses or party pacings at which they outperform the conventional talent sets.

Yes, in WoW, especially until recently, a Prot Warrior should have Unstoppable Force and Bolster, but that's only because there's only certain niche situations in which the spec itself, until recently, was worth taking over other tanks, which those talents aided far better than other talents; that would still be the case even if the other talents were overpowered by comparison. But that's not, then, an issue of the talents so much as it is innately specialized class choices (i.e. leaving so much choice of toolkit to one's class selection rather than the talents available to that class), something we don't have in as much severity here where, for instance, tanks are far more homogenized.

This tbh, WoW did alot espically in its recent expansions to really bring talents out to Mostly being useful, Even cookie cutter builds, still have 3 Alternative builds which u use in different enviroments.

In short could Talents work in FFXIV? Ofcourse it could, more options is never a bad option, even if they make 12 and 3 are dead, you as a Player have more control over your characters ability and Options to a level of customization.

The bits i dont like about talents however is:

WoW used talents to implement Optional Difficulty, 1 build could be Easymode while another be Difficult, i feel jobs should stand upon their own difficulty level naturally, its Ridiculous the concept that a Easymode build could be the best option for One side of things and then the job randomly Punchs a new difficulty level mid expansion. we saw this Espically with feral druid.

Taking old Abilities which completed Jobs as a "option", i hated this idea, Recycling old abilities in while can be "good" in some cases oftenly was irritating, Talents should build on what the Job has, not complete the Job.

Pruning the core jobs to make Room for "nicht decisions" the Job shouldnt pay a price to have a talent system, it should be a Addition to what we have, not a replacement to what we currently have.

If SE can avoid doing any of these things, i think a implementation of a Talent system would not be negative, weather SE Can do that challange, or If that challange is Worth while compared to another Option i dont know.

[Videra]

I really don't want average players to have an additional opportunity to do everything wrong in their settup and rotations. They're already more than capable of doing so and dragging down a party.

Big this. BIG THIS.

[Reimmi]

Didn't expect so much negativity about the game offering us more choices in how we play. OK then.

"choices"
In wow it ends up with everyone looking up icy-veins talent builds and 99% of players using only those talents
there's no choice, it just makes more things the devs have to balance around which leads to wow's problem of 1 spec being 35% lower DPS than the top spot

[Shurrikhan]

"choices"
In wow it ends up with everyone looking up icy-veins talent builds and 99% of players using only those talents
there's no choice, it just makes more things the devs have to balance around which leads to wow's problem of 1 spec being 35% lower DPS than the top spot

1. How's that possible when a sixth or so of WoW players don't even know what Icy-veins is? Or when Icy-veins suggests different situational builds for certain specs or even labels certain talent rows as "Irrelevant; pick any," or "Pick what best fits your situation."

2. While I'd agree choice is few and far between (though still far, also, from inexistant), specs =/= talents. They haven't been since the third expansion, and only barely so even then. Specializations are like branched jobs, between which you can switch instantly due to shared experience but which are each balanced separately and have few shared skills. Talents are the minute adjustments thereafter. You may as well blame talents for a 3.x BLM being weaker in a movement-heavy fight than a 3.x MNK. That one spec outperforms others by a large margin just means that (1) the lead spec synergizes well with the fight, (2) the worse spec synergizes poorly with the fight, (3) upon realizing this, most good players swapped to the lead spec, increasing its high-end parses, and (4) upon realizing this, most good players swapped off the worse spec, decreasing its high-end parses, further exaggerating their true differences.

The largest true numeric single-target difference they have right now between two specs is roughly 19% -- unacceptably high, to be certain, but a far cry from 35%. Rogues are the outlier in multi-target combat, and overall they've seen a lot more disparity due to rampant scaling issues in that area than they have most expansions.

Again, I do not want talents in XIV. But let's not twist facts here.

[Samsta]

People here are saying that icy veins gives only one build for every spec on WoW and that is why talents are bad, illusion of choice. So I went to icy veins and looked some talent builds.

Many recommendations included 2 of out 3 possible choices, and there were many situational talents that were good in different type of content, I don't know why you are spreading misinformation on here but there are definitely multiple different viable talent combinations in WoW. So the whole "talents can't be balanced" isn't true.

[Shurrikhan]

People here are saying that icy veins gives only one build for every spec on WoW and that is why talents are bad, illusion of choice. So I went to icy veins and looked some talent builds.

Many recommendations included 2 of out 3 possible choices, and there were many situational talents that were good in different type of content, I don't know why you are spreading misinformation on here but there are definitely multiple different viable talent combinations in WoW. So the whole "talents can't be balanced" isn't true.

People just prefer the simplest, most fatalistic answer, I guess?
If you did something wrong, the concept itself was flawed, making doing it right impossible.
If someone's doing something you don't like, wax the philosophical impossibilities of their goal and vanity of their actions.

[Xyr]

People here are saying that icy veins gives only one build for every spec on WoW and that is why talents are bad, illusion of choice. So I went to icy veins and looked some talent builds.

Many recommendations included 2 of out 3 possible choices, and there were many situational talents that were good in different type of content, I don't know why you are spreading misinformation on here but there are definitely multiple different viable talent combinations in WoW. So the whole "talents can't be balanced" isn't true.

Because this is the FFXIV forums and the fanbois will use any excuse regardless of true or false, all the while ignoring the obvious, as long as it's against their ideals, that's why I stopped bothering arguing with them. There's a several obviously familiar names, of which I won't call out as it is against ToS, but when I see their post i simply ignore it.