It is time to get rid of them SE...

[Saefinn]

[edit] And for transparency, I misread and thought you quoted a different part of my post, which I wrote a response for and I have edited with a relevant response. So if my original response was caught, I am happy to put my hands up and say "I screwed up". If it wasn't, then I have already put hands up and said "I screwed up" and probably sound like an idiot.

Lore? We can summon both bahamut and phoenix, and the latter is stronger. RIP lore.

The latter is also temporary and you cannot sustain their form after a certain amount of time, egis can be summoned for as long as you like, whilst the former are more powerful, the latter are sustained - so it's not like from a lore standpoint they'd permanently replace the egis.

Though I'm not sure how any of this contradicts or is an argument against any points I've made because you seem to be avoiding addressing them.

[Talec]

I like the way summoners is heading towards. Demi-Bahamut was already a cool start. Now the rotation with Demi-Phoenix to fill in. In my opinion, I would say it's ok to delete egis but repleace them with another Demi-Summon which becomes active whenever Bahamut or Phoenix can't.

I overall like the general playstyle of this "summoning demi-Primals for a short time". For me this feels more satisfactioning then gameplay with egis could ever become.

[dinnertime]

Along with a massive bloat of OGCDs, half of them being locked when You have Demis out. Nobody asked for this. Which is why I'm saying remove the silly egis and the assaults, they are ugly and inconvenient.

1 - We can't cast devotion, egi assaults or enkindle when we have demis out. Terrible.
2 - The Egis stick to attacking whatever they attack at that moment, switching targets is awful, especially with Ifrit Egi switching targets on mobs that are far from each other.
3 - They are ugly as hell.

Why do you insist on wanting to keep something that is inconvenient gameplay wise and looks terrible asthetically (okay, subjective I guess...lol)?

This, also right now all they do is provide you with Ruin IV. What else is there to them? Nothing. The pet management involved is unnecessary busywork for wet noodle damage, and it's not like before where it's ideal to time out the buffs they give. They're so detached from everything else about SMN's main toolkit that there needs to be a change.

They can be reworked into working like Demi's but without the need for Trance (so they can be used during DB/DP downtime), have them stay in place, maybe add more to them if needed and I'm happy.

[JisKing98]

How bout just make Demi bahumet and Demi Phoenix permanent pets after reaching 70 and 80? Bahumut would be for single targets and Phoenix aoe. Just make akh morn and revelations have a extra long CD and buff their auto attack by like 250 pot. Have the DoTs we have have lower potency but super long durations to compensate so now they will be a press and forget thing. Combine ruin 3 and 4 to ruin 5 a 340 potency spell

[Verlyn]

Completely agree. Always hated the "Egi" concept. They look stupid, feel terrible, and operate like a rusty door hinge. Being able to glamour them all into randomly colored carbuncles was the first indication they abandoned the pet idea, and giving the summer the abilities the egi previously did on auto attack was frankly the nail in the coffin for pets, they are now one step away from being phased out entirely.

I am hoping they continue with the "demi" summons. While Bahamut being split into two parts feels terrible, Phoenix in particular feels great. I always look forward to that summon. It gives a party wide buff (which I wish was stronger and maybe auto ressed the nearest floor warmer), Has a simple rotation which allows for emergency plays given its spell speed perk, and looks true to concept.

I think if they adopted this "trance" aspect it would set the FFXIV summoner apart from previous versions while still remaining true to what people expect from the job. If i were in control of class design I would make the trance action off cooldown. A new gauge added that tracked current aether element based off certain spells (Aoe would align wind, Single target fire, ect) and after spending two aether flows you can to trance that primal. Ruin, your dots, and aoe, would switch to that primal's abilities and it behaves like a lesser form of the Demi summons, use "Deathflare" to end the trance and the primal does their signature ability. Giving you one Bahamut/Phoenix aether, or Demi aether to differentiate them.

Just using the "trance" aspect in general, I think, would be a far better and unique summoner option with many gameplay possibilities if they choose to put effort into summoner like they have dancer. One based entirely off of trance would leave future options open to many other primal appearances in our kit as many could just be cosmetic changes. The three button combo the current Phoenix uses is simple enough to work for everything and allows every primal to be properly represented. It's robust enough you could add melee themed primals and just have the summoner be in melee range to use those abilities, hopefully with the damage increase to make up for the danger.

To be honest, I really like this suggestion. Making trance the permanent mechanic for SMN feels right. And there's totally a way to keep egis 'temporarily' to preserve the lore while phasing them out of later gameplay entirely.

So taking the idea that Trance becomes more about trancing up the primary three primals (Ifrit/Garuda/Bahamut). You start us at level 30 with the fire/wind/earth aether building and "Summon Egi." You build up your needed aether, summon egi and the pet appears and does its silly DoT damage, Deathflare/Enkindle makes it do its ultimate and vanish. That's our early gameplay. It sets the stage for later mechanics, gets us used to that sort of gameplay, and our lore is intact.

When the Trance job quest comes along, it upgrades Summon Egi to Trance. Trance glamours our abilities to be themed after the primal and we no longer have the egis at all. Feels like a natural evolution instead.

[Saefinn]

Putting aside the back & forth I had about why people who like egis like them. I think I've settled down with the changes a bit more and although at first it definitely felt clunky, but after figuring out my mojo, I've found this iteration growing on me. It is busy, whilst its optimal rotation is really long, none of that is really an issue to me, in fact, I like busy.

I still like having pets to give commands to, Egi Assault seems to be an attempt to force us to micromanage our pets and get more used out of them in our rotations. I used to micromanage mine anyway, and this actually feels more streamlined because it's an oGCD weave, which I've found comfortable when done on other jobs. I've always liked Enkindle too. I've read people saying that it feels like adding Egi Assault and giving charges of them just means you're tripping over the other oGCD weaves. Having looked at an optimised version of the SMN rotation, they're more spread out. With Egi Assault being the focus for the Dreadwyrm trance rotation, but keeping the aetherflow abilities like Fester ready for the Bahamut and Phoenix rotations.

So I don't know if some of the issues can be put down to how the flow of SMN has changed so drastically, whilst at the same time making it so easy to fall into a clunky way of playing it. At least, I've felt it a lot less clunky now that I've adjusted my approach. And I agree with all sentiments that the demis feel great. But I still like having egis in our demi downtime. The aesthetic issue I think could easily be fixed in expanding the egi glamour system.

But functionally, this seems to be the first time they've tried to rework how the egis work. Would there be a better way they could make it feel better for those who are not liking it rather than just deleting them?

[Palladiamors]

Disagreed. FIX THEM. Make them more meaningful. So many of our job quests focus around turning these mini-primals into our weapons, they need to be more of a focus and less of an afterthought. Removing them is not an option.

[Len]

So many of our job quests focus around turning these mini-primals into our weapons, they need to be more of a focus and less of an afterthought. Removing them is not an option.

You mean like the quest where we try to harness an additional egi but fail to? What a joke.

Egis being an afterthought is exactly why they'd be easy to remove.

[Exodus-E]

You mean like the quest where we try to harness an additional egi but fail to? What a joke.

Egis being an afterthought is exactly why they'd be easy to remove.

Oh yeah!
Just like that quest featuring the Immortal Flames' Summoner division (where we had to face their Egis), or that other one featuring Sari and his Sephirot-Egis!

What a joke, am I right? /sarcasm

But seriously, they definitely aren't an "afterthought" lore-wise.
And that's exactly why they wouldn't be "easy to remove".

[Palladiamors]

You mean like the quest where we try to harness an additional egi but fail to? What a joke.

Egis being an afterthought is exactly why they'd be easy to remove.

Er, you've seriously forgotten every quest where we go out and bend a primal to our will? Where we have to have fought them to begin with to be able to summon them again to be able to manipulate them? As in...nearly every ARR quest, and then in taming Bahamuts power to use Dreadwyrm trance, and then learning the Allagan secrets to summon Demi-Bahamut? And thats not even going into the Carbuncle quests early on in Arcanist.

You're being purposefully obtuse and not only does it not add anything to...any sort of conversation that might be had, it also makes you look stupid. Knock it off.