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  1. #1
    Player
    Felien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    94
    Character
    Felien Eurelt
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 80

    Savege and the DPS gap

    Before ppl start to say that not everyone will do savage or that may not interfere in the fights. We just need to remember Alexander Gordias. Back then they make strong dps check that everyone including both healers need to do dmg in other to clear the fight. After the A3 “incident”, they cut the dps check by a lot to make sure that not only players that perform their job on a high level clear savage mode. And now we have the ultimate fight, till they decided to do it again.
    On 4.0 this gap increase but tanks and healers still could “carry” a fight, because they could do much more dmg that SE intended to the fight.
    In 5.0 with a hard nerv on healers and tanks (specially) damage, and the potential gap on those role decreases. (Still have)
    With that the DPS role is the only one that increases and it was by a lot. If you was farming Titania EX in the first week and a half as a tank or healer o even as a dps you probably could feel this gap, ppl could have more than 6% gap before adds with the same comp. I not counting Eden normal because by the time that it was release much more ppl have hit lv 80 (more the time pass, more ppl that will not do savage gets bigger compared to the ones that will try it), and now the gap on Titania can easily pass 10% before adds now. And it was way to soon for me that we hit this gap, the item ilvl potential is still small.
    So will they put the bar up and it may become a “wall”? Or they will not force and it will be easy dps wise?
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    van_arn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,960
    Character
    Van Arn
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    No matter how "savage" the gap is, I just want them to put earlier enrages in. If a party can't meet the sustained dps check for the encounter, have an extra potential enrage in phase 1.

    That way replacements can happen before the demoralizing 10% wipe.
    (16)
    Last edited by van_arn; 07-22-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Vidu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,993
    Character
    Vidu Moriquendi
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 90
    Quite frankly: It shouldnt be "easy" dps-wise.
    The fights were always balanced with high healer and tank dps as a "bonus" in mind, not as a 100% requirement.

    Let me just leave this here: I was running Titania Ex on my still badly geared bard last week. I'm still not 100% familiar with all the new skills and keeping track of Apex-arrow etc. and my performance was far from perfect. Yet somehow I outdps'ed every other dps, including a samurai - and all of them had bought full ronka for their left side.
    I dont think we saw enrage, but if we did it would have been justified with people dealing as much damage as they should have done at level 70.

    For Savage it cant only get harder for tanks and especially healers to perform their job well - it should get more difficult for dps aswell, thats the whole point of having content thats offering a challenge! While we certainly dont need A3 again, talking about a fight like Titania and a skill-gap sounds to me like the solution for said gap is: Close the gap yourself by learning your class properly.
    (6)

  4. #4
    Player
    Nariel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa-lominsa
    Posts
    1,145
    Character
    Nariel Cendrenuit
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidu View Post
    Quite frankly: It shouldnt be "easy" dps-wise.
    The fights were always balanced with high healer and tank dps as a "bonus" in mind, not as a 100% requirement.

    Let me just leave this here: I was running Titania Ex on my still badly geared bard last week. I'm still not 100% familiar with all the new skills and keeping track of Apex-arrow etc. and my performance was far from perfect. Yet somehow I outdps'ed every other dps, including a samurai - and all of them had bought full ronka for their left side.
    I dont think we saw enrage, but if we did it would have been justified with people dealing as much damage as they should have done at level 70.

    For Savage it cant only get harder for tanks and especially healers to perform their job well - it should get more difficult for dps aswell, thats the whole point of having content thats offering a challenge! While we certainly dont need A3 again, talking about a fight like Titania and a skill-gap sounds to me like the solution for said gap is: Close the gap yourself by learning your class properly.
    As a main bard I can only second this, I sure love being the stongest DpS in the team... Buuuuut I'd rather be second or even third and actualy win the fight. I mean, I'm not even that good of a bard myself...
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,613
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Gordias is a terrible example due to how poorly tuned it was. Manipulator was literally impossible until you could by a tome weapons. Even Living Liquid required absolute perfection to get passed without said weapon. There will have be another Savage tier that brutal to prog through nor should there. Gear gating isn't good design. That being said, DPS checks have become far too lenient. If you have several deaths or people with no idea how execute a proper opener, Savage should "wall" you at some point—preferably as early as the second fight. I sincerely hope we never see scaling like Alte Roite or Catastrophe again.
    (1)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  6. #6
    Player
    Xatsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    2,011
    Character
    Xatsh Vei
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    The dps checks on EX trials were always easy compared to raids.

    A3 savage was horribly overtuned. Almost no one who cleared all of the coils fights before hand was beating it until people had almost all weekly lockout tome gear almost 2-3 months after the raid was out, was harder then A4 savage. It required high dps from everyone and a optimal setup to even stand a chance when it first came out.

    Fight should be about the same difficulty as they have been in my opinion. With the A3 nightmare being left only for ultimate level fights for those wanting an insane challenge.

    I do not think a savage tier fight should be designed with healers being required to max dps the whole time with optimal dps only melds and so on. I think they should have to dps, just should not require dps > heal to clear as a healer. If a group does min/max jobs or have a healer that is pushing massive dps that should simply cover a dps death in the fight or allow for the fight to be cleared earlier then intended. Aka if it was expected for you to be say Ilvl 455 doing this you could clear with a group avg of 451-452 with healers and tanks max dpsing. Aka give the group a buffer for failing mechanics or the ability to clear it 1-2 weeks faster then intended without needing tome upgrades. (Basically how it has been designed in the game not counting A3 savage)

    Ultimate tier then I can see that requiring everyone to be optimal for the whole duration to clear, healers and tanks should be expected to maximize dps in this tier of fight while performing their other roles as well.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player
    Niyuka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    266
    Character
    Cierre Mhakaracca
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    The problem is that too many players have gotten used to lax/nonexistant DPS requirements. The differences are astonishing: A samurai who, with the same gear, gets out-DPS'd by me on a GNB should simply not be able to advance beyond the MSQ.
    People CAN be better - they just dont get better if you dont nudge them into that direction.

    Titania Ex is a great example: Same gear, one group gets her to barely below 60% before disappearing, another to 47. The first group simply shouldnt be able to kill her. Extreme Trials are about mid-weight in difficulty, anything beyond that should simply be unavailable until you clean up your playstyle a bit.
    (12)

  8. #8
    Player
    Pepsi_Plunge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    927
    Character
    Pepsi Plunge
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Usually Ex Trials are way more forgiving then Savage Raids. If you do the mechanics correctly and noone dies the kill is practically guaranteed, regardless of gear or maximal DPS. And Innocence is even more forgiving then Titania. Even with low gear and a lot of deaths our practice group still turned into a kill group at the second try.
    Eden Savage will be much harder I suppose.
    (0)
    Last edited by Pepsi_Plunge; 07-22-2019 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Conando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Rostythgar Onasch
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Not sure where you’re getting the hard nerf on tank damage. At least where Paladin and Gunbreaker are concerned.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    ImDingDing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    387
    Character
    Dingding Ding
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 80
    Actually tanks still do 2/3 of a dps and healers (WHM) do more in 5.0
    (0)

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