Small tweak for RDM

[Drayos]

With the loss of refresh and increased MP costs, RDM's progression niche is dwindling.

Tbh true.

I wish I saw more come to RDM.

I want to main RDM because aesthetically I love the job, I just wish it had more to play with.

Given something else which gave it something more but saying that even to try give it a second mechanic I guess it could be considered difficult without just throwing a needless bar on it so I suspose it’d have to be something to mesh with it’s black and white mana options.

I’d of liked to see more flexibility in its melee section of the fight. Some more OGCDs and maybe a secondary mechanic or something to its black and white usuage. And maybe some extra spenders which we could use to make the rotation itself abit more flexible.

[Drayos]

I'd encourage you to read past the very first sentence of my post. I actually spend the second paragraph asking for buffs to the class.



Which is entirely reasonable. I'm not making a case for why they should match BLM, especially given that they have a much easier rotation. But they could still do with some potency increases, especially if a proc chance is reduced. If I get a proc that replaces spell A with spell B, I want to feel pretty good about getting to press B. Instead I get a reskinned Jolt II, since it's barely a potency increase.

And maybe 'too many procs' was a vague way to describe the point. The issue isn't overwriting procs, it's the sensation that you simply can't get rid of them. The moment you spend one, another shows up. What's the point of a chance to proc if they're so plentiful? For example: direct crits on your big damage abilities feel really good to see. Big numbers like that are fun because they don't show up often. If you tone down a proc chance, but increase other aspects of the skill to compensate, it'll be more satisfying to get it since it'll feel noticeably different than just a paltry increase over the spell you were going to cast instead.

The primary focus of the topic is both fun and flavor, both of which seem to be priorities when discussing other classes, ie. Monk and Scholar. I think they should be a priority for all classes, including Red Mage, even if it's something as simple as tweaking some numbers to make the rotation more satisfying to play.

It’s rotation isn’t easier then BLM it’s positioning is easier they both are quite similar in ease of rotation, it’s just BLM to optimise takes a lot more raid knowledge and positional knowledge to manage haha

I’d say some extra things given to RDM would be nice though. There’s no reason RDM couldn’t have some additional passives and maybe some extra spenders to make its rotation more flexible and have more options.

[Archwizard]

I’d of liked to see more flexibility in its melee section of the fight. Some more OGCDs and maybe a secondary mechanic or something to its black and white usuage. And maybe some extra spenders which we could use to make the rotation itself abit more flexible.

There’s no reason RDM couldn’t have some additional passives and maybe some extra spenders to make its rotation more flexible and have more options.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you mean by this. How would "extra spenders" equate to "greater flexibility"?

I mean right now we have a primary spender combo for single-target, a secondary spender for cleave, and a tertiary spender for extended periods of range or movement. We have no lack of options -- I can't think of a scenario we don't have the building blocks to fill the niche for already. The current question is primarily the value of the ranged spender since we want to avoid it at all times due to how weak it is for its GCD, much less its cost.

Hell, the only thing many of us can say about ShB RDM is that it gained flexibility -- a spender for range and movement, an alternative to Displacement that won't kill us, less rigid melee combo alignment on Manafication.

But of greater import is the fact that without an open niche to fill (which again, to my knowledge there are none), just jamming more spenders into the rotation for the sake of having more spenders would actually increase the rotation's rigidity, not its flexibility. We don't exactly have procs for grandiose increases in Mana generation; we can pretty easily math out the average rate at which we'll gain Mana and estimate when we'll next have our combo ready (the difference being up to 3 GCDs -- if you use zero CDs, which shrink that even more), and each additional spender in the rotation outside of the combo is a delay in it.
Sure, Moulinet itself is actively used to delay the combo so we can align it better with phases or cooldowns (and many of us wanted Reprise to do so instead), but that's a side benefit of the skill simply having values that allow it to dip into such a role; it's designed to fulfill an open niche unto itself (AoE). It doesn't increase the Mana requirements of the rotation because it's not optimal to always use it, it's just a control tool in case RNG otherwise screws our timing.
That's having an option, but we already have that so... what else do we need?

When you talk about adding a "secondary mechanic to its black and white usage", it reads like you're just disappointed the job didn't gain more depth and complexity with its spenders, not "flexibility".
And when you throw in wanting more oGCDs, it sounds like you just want damage buffs.

[Drayos]

Maybe I'm confused as to what you mean by this. How would "extra spenders" equate to "greater flexibility"?

I mean right now we have a primary spender combo for single-target, a secondary spender for cleave, and a tertiary spender for extended periods of range or movement. We have no lack of options -- I can't think of a scenario we don't have the building blocks to fill the niche for already. The current question is primarily the value of the ranged spender since we want to avoid it at all times due to how weak it is for its GCD, much less its cost.

Hell, the only thing many of us can say about ShB RDM is that it gained flexibility -- a spender for range and movement, an alternative to Displacement that won't kill us, less rigid melee combo alignment on Manafication.

But of greater import is the fact that without an open niche to fill (which again, to my knowledge there are none), just jamming more spenders into the rotation for the sake of having more spenders would actually increase the rotation's rigidity, not its flexibility. We don't exactly have procs for grandiose increases in Mana generation; we can pretty easily math out the average rate at which we'll gain Mana and estimate when we'll next have our combo ready (the difference being up to 3 GCDs -- if you use zero CDs, which shrink that even more), and each additional spender in the rotation outside of the combo is a delay in it.
Sure, Moulinet itself is actively used to delay the combo so we can align it better with phases or cooldowns (and many of us wanted Reprise to do so instead), but that's a side benefit of the skill simply having values that allow it to dip into such a role; it's designed to fulfill an open niche unto itself (AoE). It doesn't increase the Mana requirements of the rotation because it's not optimal to always use it, it's just a control tool in case RNG otherwise screws our timing.
That's having an option, but we already have that so... what else do we need?

When you talk about adding a "secondary mechanic to its black and white usage", it reads like you're just disappointed the job didn't gain more depth and complexity with its spenders, not "flexibility".
And when you throw in wanting more oGCDs, it sounds like you just want damage buffs.

I’m dissapointed that it didn’t gain much in SHB.

I was disappointed that it originally had no depth. Hence why I didn’t play it past getting it to 70 in Sb.

Maybe spenders wouldn’t be the best place to add extra things. But it’d be overall nice if the job had some extra things to do then continously loop the same skills to generation into the same finish.

[wereotter]

The only thing I see wrong with RDM is it's MP cost's are a bit steep right now but that's it, I've found since 5.0 when I played it my MP was regularly bottoming out on boss fights and it was getting a bit irritating even kicking in Lucid Dream. Slight reduction on ver spell costs is all Id rather see but otherwise the job is good.

This. Reduction in spell costs or built-in mana regeneration would be ideal. I have been wanting to see the enchanted melee combo restore mana with each hit.

Or even just removing the mana costs from verholy, verflare, and scorch would go a long way.

[KohakuTribal]

This. Reduction in spell costs or built-in mana regeneration would be ideal. I have been wanting to see the enchanted melee combo restore mana with each hit.

Or even just removing the mana costs from verholy, verflare, and scorch would go a long way.

For sure, echoing this. Mana is a bit tight and we need something to offset it. Lucid isn't gonna cut it if we have to Raise. I've been surprised Osmose or some other MP drain ability hasn't been put in caster role actions. But pretty confused by OP's problem. I find RDM procs to be extremely smooth and easy to manage. I never feel like I have too many or two few. They have a pretty generous duration as well. So you don't generally lose them unless your running between mobs or something. The only problem I run into with procs is sometimes overlapping a VerFire or VerStone that's already up when using VerHoly or VerFlare. And that's just my own forgetfulness.

[LunarEmerald]

I do find it a bit weird how punishing verholy/verflare can be if you accidentally cast something other than use the proc right away. The proc completely vanishes. The potency from flare/holy and scorch gone. It's weird when there's zero punishment for a dancer mispressing a button during a dance. It doesn't interrupt the dance or end it.

[Archwizard]

Archwizard, do you still find RDM engaging despite believing that it has a low skill ceiling? I'm considered leveling the class but am a bit put off by so many people claiming it has a boring rotation. What draws you to the job?

Sorry I missed this!

I find it pretty stress-lite by comparison to the other casters to be honest, especially compared to the tight timing requirements and strict placement on BLM, and the disorganized mess that is SMN. The only timers RDM has to worry about are self-buff windows from cooldowns, and using their procs before they expire (the latter of which isn't hard when they last 30 seconds apiece and replace every other spell you cast). Dualcast is great for practicing slide-casting which can give you strong mobility for a caster, and Vercure is excellent self-healing for solo content.

Plus you have Verraise when someone goes down in the later levels, which the healers certainly appreciate in most Duty Finder groups.

Do I wish it had more depth? Sure, I've been using the same rotation for nearly a year now, and I have 40 seconds of alternating spellcasts for every 10 seconds of melee -- it is a caster, after all.
But it can still be engaging, and not having to worry overmuch about your rotation gives you more freedom to focus on fight mechanics.

[Drayos]

Archwizard, do you still find RDM engaging despite believing that it has a low skill ceiling? I'm considered leveling the class but am a bit put off by so many people claiming it has a boring rotation. What draws you to the job?

in all honesty, In SHB quite a few jobs have become quite easy to play, I dont rly find SAM, Bard or Dancer any harder then RDM to play, i mean Sure RDMs Design does kinda play the job for u in a way, but every job tbh does keep a Player engaged, i wouldnt say any job is "brain dead". i just wouldnt say they are Mechanically Challanging to a player, but thats the thing MMORPG Jobs rarely are.

Imho, Ignore Difficulty and more, play what u enjoy, try RDM, theres optimisation etc etc u can really delve into with any job. i do wish they'd have given RDM More, but its still quite fun to play.

everyone finds atleast one job in this game boring, and it isnt always because of how "engaging" or "difficult" they find it.

[Kayce]

I love the aesthetics of the RDM, but I'm not too happy with the current mana problems and its dps standing (it's too far behind BLM).

I wanted them to slightly complicate RDM. My idea for making the rotation more interesting would be to add a new ogcd ability with a cooldown (30 seconds?) that spent 20 of your higher mana to deal a good chunk of damage, but it is only available when your mana is unbalanced. Upon using it, you would gain a buff (probably indicated on the job gauge) based on which spell you cast (the spell would be different based on which mana was the higher one).

The goal here would be to intentionally unbalance your mana and use the new ability to rebalance it, and you would alternate unbalancing your white mana then your black mana and using the new ability most likely with a melee combo inbetween each use due to the cooldown. After having used both the white and black mana versions of the rebalancing spell, you'd get a use of a new powerful red magic spell (VerUltima or whatever).

Maybe next time.