se does not understand scholar

[Hawklaser]

I get being unhappy with the changes, but I don’t agree that Scholar must be balancing damage and healing for it to be a ‘tactical healer’. Having nothing to during downtime and nothing interesting to manage is definitely frustrating, but I feel like it’s just taking Scholar’s identity down the wrong direction by making it focused on dealing direct damage.

I think a better balance of interesting buff/debuff/utility would make Scholar feel much more ‘tactical’ than it is now. But I feel like the more value our DPS has, the less we’re able to think tactically about how to use our other abilities.

In 4.0 for example, with Quickened Aetherflow and stronger Fairy heals I could throw Excogitation on the tank and know for a fact that outside of some generally rare situations I can safely use all further Aetherflow on Energy Drain for the DPS increase. Incoming damage could always be covered by Whispering Dawn and the occasional Indomitability spell. The tactical value of all other Aetherflow abilities becomes diminished when any one of them has direct damage attached to it (why use Lustrate or Sacred Soil when you can use Energy Drain or Shadowflare and kill it quicker?)

Naturally, these issues are also deeper than Scholar’s design itself, due to healing design for general content being so massively undermined that a Scholar often doesn’t need to plan out what they’re going to next for healing. I feel like the current Scholar especially would be much more enjoyable if we had to actually make strategic use of the toolkit for healing, instead of being able to cover all of it so easily.

Scholar’s feel of a ‘tactical healer’ can come back, but it doesn’t necessarily need to have damage dealing skills in order for this to happen (at least in my opinion).

As an aside, I think everyone can agree that Art of War really was just lazy. Not only the reused animation, but the fact that there’s nothing ‘tactical’ or ‘Scholar-y’ about it

I'd be fine with loosing some of the Dps sides of Sch as long as the class kept the tactical and planning thematic that are the key staple to the class. And right now, that feeling really isn't there currently. The tactical/planning thematic is also part of why Exocog made such a wonderful capstone skill, while Seraph just feels bleh in comparison.(Don't get me wrong Seraph is a good tool, it just really doesn't fit the Sch thematic)

[Miiu]

I mean scholar is far from the worst job in the game. It functions well. The healing output is great and you have more tools to heal than you know what to do with. It is just boring compared to what it was.

[Hawklaser]

As an addendum I still don’t understand where this concept of Scholar being a DPS/healer hybrid came from. It came from a DPS job purely for developer convenience (so they could add a new healer job without making a whole new class). If you ask me the ‘Heavy DPS / Low healing / fairy solo healing’ identity it used to have was purely incidental, but they didn’t want to change it so drastically mid-patch when every healer and their gran’s dog is a Scholar because deeps. It’s almost as if they tried to rectify Scholar’s incidental identity this expansion by simplifying the DPS kit and giving it more if a focus on healing (even if the concept was poorly executed)

It has to do with the original arcanist class base, which is essentially gutted out of Sch now. Arcanist formed the DoT/Pet class foundation that Sch and Smn both built upon. Physic was to keep Carbuncle alive to tank for you in solo content in addition to other tools that came later. Sch built upon this base in the healer/party support direction. Smn the pure Dps direction.

Originally the classes were more generalist and customizable for solo play, and the jobs more specific and specilized for dungeons. IE Lancer could set cure as an extra while Dragoon could not, but Lancer would not have access to some of the better damage options Dragoon at the same time.

[Sylve]

I'm genuinely curious as to WTF these SCHs are doing if they can't use 3 AF charges per minute.
First charge should always be Sacred Soil.
Second should almost always be Excog since theres absolutely no reason to not use it.

And then you're trying to convince me that for the next 55~ seconds your group is such utter perfection that no one will suffer at least 20k damage to justify a Lustrate? Or that you somehow manage to perfectly negate the party wide damage in its entirety when it does happen in such a way that Indom can't be used?
On the off chance that this is actually possible … SS will be back off cooldown before Aetherflow so you can just drop your third charge on that. Grats, all 3 of your charges are now used before Aetherflow becomes ready again.

You truly have to have to be trying your hardest to avoid casting an AF ability to have charges left over when it comes ready again.

Tanking as a Ninja in ff11 is still the most fun I had with thanking in any mmo to date.

But besides that. Like people mentioned SE seems to be really confused in what they want. Sure saying they want something different than players is an argument to have but the kits within AST and SCH feel clunky in comparison to what they were before. Especially for AST (sorry for focusing on them since this is a SCH thread) but the job at the moment feels like. They gave 30 employees a rough baseline of what the job should be and told them each to come up with an ability. And then when they came back they just put every suggestion in. No matter how bad the synergy is.
Sure I am over dramatizing but still.

With the way they handled healers this expansion I doubt SE we will see a new healer in 6.0.... and honestly I probably don't want to see one since I feel it would be a nightmare to see 4 healers being being balanced.

Balance gets thrown around a lot in this forum, but the fact of the matter is that all 3 Healers are producing similar results in the content we have so far. Proper balance is literally a case of no one healer being stronger or weaker in all areas.
WHM has strong personal DPS, able to drop Misery nukes while healing and Assize being dual function. But aside from healing, offers nothing whatsoever to the party.
AST has the lowest personal DPS (mostly on account of Potencies) but also the greatest degree of party damage utility. Is able to handle the same healing load as a WHM.
SCH has the middle ground in DPS, in both Potency per cast and the ability enable windows for itself through Shielding and Fairy healing. Chain Strategem buffs the party a bit, but not on the level of ASTs cards while offering Healing power on par with the other 2.

Any Balance changes that occur will most likely not be related to healing strength but rather in the party buffs to bring their raid contributions closer to equality.
We'll never have perfect parity and the elitist min/maxers will figure out which one offers the party even .5% more damage and that'll get designated as "Best" and that mentality will trickle down the playerbase without ever acknowledging the context of "best".

Also, in reference to your "30 employees" statement, do you realize that you're actually describing what this forum wants to happen rather than what did happen?
This forums seems to want healers to be "design by committee via forum" in regards to AST and SCH. 100 different ideas as to what needs fixing and how the devs should do it.

[Foxkid]

I'm genuinely curious as to WTF these SCHs are doing if they can't use 3 AF charges per minute.
First charge should always be Sacred Soil.
Second should almost always be Excog since theres absolutely no reason to not use it.

And then you're trying to convince me that for the next 55~ seconds your group is such utter perfection that no one will suffer at least 20k damage to justify a Lustrate? Or that you somehow manage to perfectly negate the party wide damage in its entirety when it does happen in such a way that Indom can't be used?
On the off chance that this is actually possible … SS will be back off cooldown before Aetherflow so you can just drop your third charge on that. Grats, all 3 of your charges are now used before Aetherflow becomes ready again.

You truly have to have to be trying your hardest to avoid casting an AF ability to have charges left over when it comes ready again.

Considering as soon as you and your group learn a boss fight and where the avoidable damage comes from, the absolute need to use all 3 stacks like that diminishes greatly. Especially considering how much mitigation scholars can offer en masse before the room aoe is cast unless its a spam cast (triplecast and the like).

Even though Seraph seems to be looked down upon in accordance to the forums, using Consolation and Succor reduces A LOT of damage that makes Indom essentially wasted overhealing, Fey Blessing can do the same even if it may be a little weaker if you're only healing to keep them fighting rather than to top off constantly, and E- Tactics + Succor can very easily offer the same amount of healing as Indom as well if the instant heal isn't necessary in that moment.

And this is before even using WD and not counting if you use anything with Recitation either which removes the AF cost of the next ability anyway (except Soil, but that's just a guess, I use Rec for catalyze or succor).

Hell, for the Titania fight alone the first phase generally goes (pre-pull shielding and regen) > chain/sacred > excog > broil spam till mist rune in which case I've been sitting on 1 charge since a Lustrate wasn't needed unless the tank is absolutely terrible + my co-heal is usually whm > sacred + succor for flame rune > reapply 3 stacks > repeat as necessary to aid the lightning tether to bring everyone above 50% (usually a fey blessing or ET Succor since she uses her aoe so sparingly).

You don't have to "try" to avoid using AF if the time doesn't call for its use. I'm prone to panicking and popping indoms left and right to top off when I'm new to a fight and learning when the damage is coming, once the fight is learned however, that AF usage drops dramatically to the point its just excog, sacred, blessing, WD, Succor, and Catalyze fishing 95% of the time unless the tank royally effs up somehow and that Lustrate is actually needed.

[Sylve]

Considering as soon as you and your group learn a boss fight and where the avoidable damage comes from, the absolute need to use all 3 stacks like that diminishes greatly. Especially considering how much mitigation scholars can offer en masse before the room aoe is cast unless its a spam cast (triplecast and the like).
-snip-
Hell, for the Titania fight alone the first phase generally goes (pre-pull shielding and regen) > chain/sacred > excog > broil spam till mist rune in which case I've been sitting on 1 charge since a Lustrate wasn't needed unless the tank is absolutely terrible + my co-heal is usually whm > sacred + succor for flame rune > reapply 3 stacks > repeat as necessary to aid the lightning tether to bring everyone above 50% (usually a fey blessing or ET Succor since she uses her aoe so sparingly).

You don't have to "try" to avoid using AF if the time doesn't call for its use. I'm prone to panicking and popping indoms left and right to top off when I'm new to a fight and learning when the damage is coming, once the fight is learned however, that AF usage drops dramatically to the point its just excog, sacred, blessing, WD, Succor, and Catalyze fishing 95% of the time unless the tank royally effs up somehow and that Lustrate is actually needed.

Replace every use of Succor with an Indom. Saves you a GCD you can spend on Broil instead.
Also, learning the fight makes it easier to expend all 3 charges, not harder. Knowing exactly when an AoE is going out means I can plan to use an Indom over a Succor.
Further, your cohealer would save themselves some work by coordinating you to use Indoms more.
Also, since you mention Catalyze on the Tank, one assumes you're using Adloq. Heres an idea, If you have a charge left over and AF is coming back up .. Maybe DONT Adloq the Tank. Let them take the hit Galvanise would have blocked and justify your Lustrate usage.

And like I said, you can SS twice and Excog twice inside an Aetherflow cooldown. That's 4 potential usages of the 3 Aetherflow charges you get.
Please also remember that Trials/Raids are not the only content in which we heal. Even in an absolutely miracle perfect EX Dungeon run, the party takes unavoidable damage. Waste your spare charge on Indoms and save yourself a GCD.
Ive said before that i'd like the second Healer requirement removed from Trials and raids, as it immediately boosts our healing workload.

For playing a job with a foundation on planning ahead, you sure don't seem to want to plan out Aetherflow usage.

[Foxkid]

Replace every use of Succor with an Indom. Saves you a GCD you can spend on Broil instead.
Also, learning the fight makes it easier to expend all 3 charges, not harder. Knowing exactly when an AoE is going out means I can plan to use an Indom over a Succor.
Further, your cohealer would save themselves some work by coordinating you to use Indoms more.
Also, since you mention Catalyze on the Tank, one assumes you're using Adloq. Heres an idea, If you have a charge left over and AF is coming back up .. Maybe DONT Adloq the Tank. Let them take the hit Galvanise would have blocked and justify your Lustrate usage.

And like I said, you can SS twice and Excog twice inside an Aetherflow cooldown. That's 4 potential usages of the 3 Aetherflow charges you get.
Please also remember that Trials/Raids are not the only content in which we heal. Even in an absolutely miracle perfect EX Dungeon run, the party takes unavoidable damage. Waste your spare charge on Indoms and save yourself a GCD.
Ive said before that i'd like the second Healer requirement removed from Trials and raids, as it immediately boosts our healing workload.

For playing a job with a foundation on planning ahead, you sure don't seem to want to plan out Aetherflow usage.

Planning ahead means reducing as much damage as possible as a **shield healer** which Scholar just so happens is. Otherwise, there's literally no worthwhile purpose to be overhealing that much if I don't have to. The way you talk is a scholar who wants to be something else because Excog is a safety net and nothing more especially since it won't pop until its off cd or they finally drop below half, sacred is still just 10% at the end of the day regen or not (and exacerbated overhealing when compounded with WD and shielding) and should NOT be used every single moment its off cd if the incoming damage is manageable already in a boss fight (a trash pull is different entirely and will warrant using it every moment since that reduction adds up a lot quicker than a every once in a while tank buster or auto).

And you said to use indom over succor to spam broil even more than I do now? I can literally spam broil all day in an encounter as is without "needing" to waste an AF when its not needed. "My shields broke and the group took 10k damage, let's Indom for potentially 80-100k on overhealing when counting crits instead of just popping blessing or succor for less so and a shield." And why in Hydaelen's green Source would I intentionally choose to let the tank eat an unassisted buster whether or not just to "use a Lustrate"? 9/10 times the tank will already have excog on them. I'm letting them drop to half first unless its a mechanical heavy hit before I do anything of the sort because it'll be a waste until that specific effect is gone (ergo, why waste a delayed and health gated heal just to waste AF on a Lustrate that wasn't needed until then? That's asking for stupid amounts of overhealing for the sake of overhealing unless the tank is undergeared or bad).

Take Innocence and his constant tank swaps for an example now. Righteous Bolt cast > Excog already in effect > catalyze the tank and uniquely here use sacred. The damage in this specific instance even after the excog goes off unless its a DRK throwing on TBN on top of it all (which usually results in them taking 0-1500 damage) will definitely request a necessary Lustrate because the damage is obscene in this matter alone so far. But in Titania and just about all current content (maybe except Titan and his dumb bs), that kind of lazy affair isn't required unless you intentionally gimp yourself down a level to the "casual healer".

Also, further still, my co-healer whm or not does what they will while I do what I will. If heavy group damage is coming in, then yes, indom will be justified along with medica 2 and the AST heal (i don't play the class don't @ me), if just standard run of the mill sabbath (not dual, triple, or enrage cast) is coming in and everyone already has 2 shields in effect, the fairy alone, a WD, or succor is MORE than enough to get them back up that tiny amount and me and my co-heal can continue brainlessly spamming broil/stone/malefic(?) with youtube running in the background.

[Sylve]

Planning ahead means reducing as much damage as possible as a **shield healer** which Scholar just so happens is. Otherwise, there's literally no worthwhile purpose to be overhealing that much if I don't have to. The way you talk is a scholar who wants to be something else because Excog is a safety net and nothing more especially since it won't pop until its off cd or they finally drop below half, sacred is still just 10% at the end of the day regen or not (and exacerbated overhealing when compounded with WD and shielding) and should NOT be used every single moment its off cd if the incoming damage is manageable already in a boss fight (a trash pull is different entirely and will warrant using it every moment since that reduction adds up a lot quicker than a every once in a while tank buster or auto).

And you said to use indom over succor to spam broil even more than I do now? I can literally spam broil all day in an encounter as is without "needing" to waste an AF when its not needed. "My shields broke and the group took 10k damage, let's Indom for potentially 80-100k on overhealing when counting crits instead of just popping blessing or succor for less so and a shield." And why in Hydaelen's green Source would I intentionally choose to let the tank eat an unassisted buster whether or not just to "use a Lustrate"? 9/10 times the tank will already have excog on them. I'm letting them drop to half first unless its a mechanical heavy hit before I do anything of the sort because it'll be a waste until that specific effect is gone (ergo, why waste a delayed and health gated heal just to waste AF on a Lustrate that wasn't needed until then? That's asking for stupid amounts of overhealing for the sake of overhealing unless the tank is undergeared or bad).

Take Innocence and his constant tank swaps for an example now. Righteous Bolt cast > Excog already in effect > catalyze the tank and uniquely here use sacred. The damage in this specific instance even after the excog goes off unless its a DRK throwing on TBN on top of it all (which usually results in them taking 0-1500 damage) will definitely request a necessary Lustrate because the damage is obscene in this matter alone so far. But in Titania and just about all current content (maybe except Titan and his dumb bs), that kind of lazy affair isn't required unless you intentionally gimp yourself down a level to the "casual healer".

Also, further still, my co-healer whm or not does what they will while I do what I will. If heavy group damage is coming in, then yes, indom will be justified along with medica 2 and the AST heal (i don't play the class don't @ me), if just standard run of the mill sabbath (not dual, triple, or enrage cast) is coming in and everyone already has 2 shields in effect, the fairy alone, a WD, or succor is MORE than enough to get them back up that tiny amount and me and my co-heal can continue brainlessly spamming broil/stone/malefic(?) with youtube running in the background.

Considering all of 2 of our entire repertoire of healing results in a Shield, and they happen to be our single most resource intensive spells, this hardly makes us THE shield healer. Yes, we have shields, Yes, they're useful. But it's hardly our sole defining trait.
Properly planning ahead involves the use of our entire kit. Shields, MP free oGCDs, Fairy, the works.

If you're "wasting" Excog healing, you have failed to properly utilize it. Once its up, the Tank needs no further healing until its gone. Leaving me free to do whatever I want. SS extends this freedom by making it harder to pop it. No need to waste expensive Adloqs on someone who is going to be damn near fully healed at the expiration of the buff.
Sacred Soil should always be up. Always. 10% mitigation for everyone and a Regen is absurdly powerful. There is absolutely no reason not to cast it on cooldown while damage is being taken. If Whispering Dawn is overhealing don't cast it. If you're not going to get the full 21s of Regen out of it, You just wasted it.
Dropping Adloqs on a full HP Tank is stupid anyway. Galvanise should be used to let Embrace go off cleanly behind it. I've never believed in blowing Adloqs on full HP tanks just to take the edge off a buster. Its a waste of MP because you only get half the healing from it.
Let the buster happen, park an Adloq as it lands to restore the missing HP and let Eos get a couple of Embraces in while the Shield is blocking the auto attack followups. If the Buster is going to put the Tank into critical HP or dead without 12k~ shield, someone is doing something very wrong.

And yes, I will propose you use Indom over Succor if you have charges. To use your own example of 10k damage breaking past your shields, Indom is 400p. Same as Physick. At i440, that's a 13k~ non crit. Indom is a very viable free alternative to the incredibly expensive Succor. The overhealing will be absolutely minimal if you're so paranoid about that.

For your Innocence example, why the hell would you actively make it harder for Excog to pop and do its job by Catalyzing the Tank? All you've done is waste 30 - 40k of healing from Excog and spend 1000mp you didn't have to. AND a GCD better spent on damage.
Take a step up into Eden, where the Tankbusters are hitting Tanks for 80k~. Great, you've successfully Catalyzed the tank for 38k~ and you'll then need to heal the 42k that made it through, manually, without the benefit of an active shield to absorb further autos. Or you just Excog, let the tank eat the 80k, insta pop the 30k Excog and then land a Catalyze afterwards restoring 15k and letting Eos Embrace (and SS Regen) behind the 40k Shield.

This is what I mean by properly planning ahead. Knowing exactly how much damage a given attack will do and preparing the appropriate response to that to minimize overhealing and resource waste. Think outside the box a little.


As a fun aside, I can do EX Dungeons with overgeared Tanks, utilize all AF charges and Aetherflow on cooldown and walk out with barely any overheal just by knowing how much damage a given thing will do and which one of my spells is most suited to responding to it.


Also... Wait, are you proud of the fact that you and your co-healers just do whatever you want each without any kind of communication or attempt at synergy?

Even if this is true in endgame content (something I'll cannot comment on) it's certainly not true in earlier content. Today I healed a level 50 dunegeon with nothing but fairy cooldowns. I did not spend a single stack and I did not have to. Level 50 content should not play optimally using only 5 buttons, and adding an offensive aetherflow dump would be a start to making older content not feel awful.

Old content is outdated in terms of design. Our jobs change but the dungeons are static and tuned for what the gameplay was like back then. Its like going back to sub 30~ dungeons and not needing more than a cure every 20 odd seconds lol.

[Miiu]

I'm genuinely curious as to WTF these SCHs are doing if they can't use 3 AF charges per minute.
First charge should always be Sacred Soil.
Second should almost always be Excog since theres absolutely no reason to not use it.
[...]

Sure you can have enough AF abilities you can use in order to quickly get rid of the charges so you renew your stack. But the argument is to be made that as of right now none of the fights require to use our abilities this way.
There is no added benefit to quickly getting rid of stacks for the party.

Do I gain anything from popping sacred soil and excog on the tank right when titania is being pulled? I have more use of using recitation and adlo + emergency tactics before the first raid wide aoe hits.

Overall I prefer to use my longer cooldowns when it makes the most sense for me to use them and not just because I can. But different playstyles and all that.

Fights right now are the same as they have ever been. You'll heal alot when everybody is learning a fight but once people figured it out you are back to only healing random screw ups and unavoidable damage. Everything in between can mostly be avoided.
Especially once people gear up. So yes you can sit on 3 stacks without doing a bad job.

In terms of "Balance" I am not saying that perfect balance is something easily obtained but looking at raw numbers or what the job does on paper tells the whole story.
An AST has to work relatively harder to be on the same level a sch is or a whm. Just because of their mechanics they have to fulfill in between.

I don't have the exact numbers at the moment so I'll have to look it up again but in terms of raid utility (rdps they can provide via cards) was lower than what the other two healers can provide by just dpsing themselves.

Admittedly I am bit hazy on the numbers so if I am wrong I am happy to be corrected here.
In regards to people throwing out suggestions to how to fix the job. I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. And I doubt most people here just want SE to add in all the suggestions being made. There are enough threads where thoughtful discussion are based around if a suggestion would be under/overpowered or even a valuable addition.

I mean what else are you gonna do on a forum. People are unhappy. So they're trying to come up with stuff to bridge the time until SE might do something.

[Hatstand]

I'm genuinely curious as to WTF these SCHs are doing if they can't use 3 AF charges per minute.
First charge should always be Sacred Soil.
Second should almost always be Excog since theres absolutely no reason to not use it.

Even if this is true in endgame content (something I'll cannot comment on) it's certainly not true in earlier content. Today I healed a level 50 dunegeon with nothing but fairy cooldowns. I did not spend a single stack and I did not have to. Level 50 content should not play optimally using only 5 buttons, and adding an offensive aetherflow dump would be a start to making older content not feel awful.