Why is Coil dead?

[Freyt]

Eh, I solo'd Twintania as a dancer. I figured soloing the whole thing would probably be doable as a red mage.

[Fynlar]

On release, 2nd coil was on the level of a savage version, and 2nd coil savage was more along the lines of ultimate in difficulty.

Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

[Vidu]

Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

They were made with the same intention: To give those people who completed the most difficult content currently ingame an extreme challenge that wasnt intended to be cleared or even attempted by the majority of the people. It was an extra, ultimate challenge for the raiding community - very much how Ultimates are now.

You need to factor in the time here aswell: For the time when it was current content with the toolkit and knowledge we had back then, Savage Coil was the equivalent to Ultimate fights. Please keep in mind that this was the time when Titan HM was a gate for a lot of people and Titan EX groups required you to show multiple proof of multiple kills (I recall groups asking to show multiple Rowena weapons) because that was considered difficult content. Today we laugh at those mechanics, even when we do the content synched. They can be cleared in DF with a full party of randoms, of which 2 know the fight, 3 watched a video/guide and 3 just queued up without knowing anything at all. And even people who were reasonably good at the game back then where struggeling with fights like Titan EX or T9.
And for them Savage presented the same amount of challenge as Ultimates present to the dedicated raiding community today.

On an objective level Ultimaes may be the harder fights - on a subjective level, based on the time when it was relevant and toolkit available at that time, the Savage versions of the fights (for sure T9 Savage) represented an equal challenge.

And just a sidenote... judging by your lodestone-profile you havent done or at least completed the Ultimate fights yourself (nor the Omega Savage ones) - if you want to base someones judgement on the difficulty of those fights on wether or not they did them, may I sugget you refrain from making such judgement calls yourself?

[Aldora]

Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

In essence, Valkyrie_Lenneth is telling the truth.

When Coil was released, it didn’t have a Normal and Savage tier with different degrees of difficulty. You just had “Coil”. While it was still relevant, people were complaining that Coil was either too difficult for most players at the time and felt that they were locked out of content. This was due to the fact that the story behind Coil was relevant to the events that happened leading up to A Realm Reborn.

On the other side, you had the Hardcore Raiding community who felt that Coil was too easy and needed a bigger challenge.

In order to accommodate both sides of the community, the team first introduced a Savage Tier for the Second Coil of Bahamut. This was an experiment to see how the Harcode raiding community would react to this level of difficulty. The mechanics they used in this particular tier were even more chaotic and unforgiving then their respective original versions.

Yoshida explained that when they were creating 8-man raids during that era, they would create the fights, test them in a debugging mode and then tune them down to a level they thought would be harsh enough. Since players wanted even more difficult versions, they upped their game and made the mechanics as punishing as they could make them. Just as an experiment how far they could go, before even the hardcore raiding community would say it was too hard.

In the meantime, the team was also looking for a way to make the 8-man raids more accessible for players who were only interested in the story behind it. Due to this, they officially introduced the “Normal” and “Savage” tier for all of the 8-main raids that followed Coil.

The level of difficulty of the original Coil (before the nerfs) was comparable with the Savage tier which was going to be introduced with Heavensward. This was confirmed by Yoshida during the Live Letters. However, after releasing the first Savage tier for Alexander, the difficulty curve was quite steep, resulting in a Raid tier which was more difficult than Coil before it. The nerfs to f.i. T7 (resulting in the Renauds not one-shotting players) came after the Third Coil of Bahamut was released.

However, the Savage tier from Alexander was still not as difficult as the Savage tier from the Second Coil of Bahamut. Since the Hardcore raiding community were not satisfied with the level of difficulty that the Alexander Savage brought to the game, the Savage tier from the Second Coil of Bahamut was used as an example for the “Ultimate”-tier they released not too long ago.

So, in regards to that, the difficulty level of these raid tiers would be something like this (from “easiest” to “hardest”):

- Heavensward Normal (and beyond)
- Regular Coil
- Heavensward Savage (and beyond)
- Second Coil of Bahamut Savage
- Ultimate (Unending Coil of Bahamut & The Weapon’s Refrain)

[Fynlar]

They were made with the same intention: To give those people who completed the most difficult content currently ingame an extreme challenge that wasnt intended to be cleared or even attempted by the majority of the people. It was an extra, ultimate challenge for the raiding community - very much how Ultimates are now.

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

And just a sidenote... judging by your lodestone-profile you havent done or at least completed the Ultimate fights yourself (nor the Omega Savage ones) - if you want to base someones judgement on the difficulty of those fights on wether or not they did them, may I sugget you refrain from making such judgement calls yourself?

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.

And for them Savage presented the same amount of challenge as Ultimates present to the dedicated raiding community today.

It's really not even close.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.


It's really not even close.

Actually, I think you are getting the time lines of things mixed up here.

2nd coil savage is the original, unturned version of 2nd coil. It was released while 2nd coil was still unnerfed. They even shared loot lockouts.

2nd coil savage is a much, much harder version of 2nd coil.

You may want to look up videos or mechanic guides before spouting that it's just unnerfed 2nd coil.

In normal t7 for instance, you only get 1 Renaud at a time, and the direction they face doesn't matter. In savage, you get 2, and they are also effected by the gaze mechanic, so they can petrify people they are facing as well.

[whiskeybravo]

It's really not even close.

Yea that's why most people didn't clear it until they got full 130 from final coil...

[HyoMinPark]

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

I think you missed what Vidu was saying—Second Coil Savage was meant to be purely for the challenge, which is ultimately what Ultimate is: a challenge for the 1%. They may not be the same difficulty, but Second Coil Savage was significantly harder than anything else the game had offered at the time (even if they were meant to be reincarnations of the original unnerfed Second Coil, which it’s my understand that this is NOT the case). That’s what Ultimate is, which is why people are saying they are akin to Ultimate. Not that they ARE Ultimate.

Second Coil Savage has more mechanics present than regular Coil. I know in T9S, there are more meteor drops than in the regular T9. And this is from doing it unsynced at 60—I wasn’t playing when either were relevant, but T9S has more meteors to deal with than T9 did.

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.

I agree with Vidu, and I think experience is key. You can watch a fight all day long, but you don’t actually know what they’re like until you’re right in the middle of Bahamut’s, Nael’s, and Twintania’s divebombs. UCoB looks easier in video than it is in practice—saying that as someone who has actually been in the fight (although I haven’t cleared yet). Same for UwU (which I have cleared multiple times).

I’ve heard Second Coil Savage was unmatched in terms of difficulty back in the day. Much like UCoB and UwU still are.

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

Have you seen regular Duty Finder? They frequently tried to Vote Abandon on Susano and Lakshmi Normal Mode in Stormblood, and a lot of groups apparently have difficulty with Titania Normal Mode now (and PF struggles with her EX fight, for some reason). Back when Weeping City was the current 24-man, there were multiple threads demanding nerfs. Same with Dun Scaith. Same with Rabanastre. People asked for Final Steps of Faith story mode to be nerfed, too.

I don’t trust regular DF even with nerfed, Echo Coil.

As for the comment that they “weren’t Savage difficulty”—the original T5 had to be nerfed not too long after it released, because Twister was deemed to be “too unforgiving” (I believe only Blue Gartr had cleared it before this nerf happened). T6 was also nerfed, and I believe T7 was as well.

[Barraind]

While coil on release was above the difficulty of a savage mode, currently, they're not.

Outside Nael and maybe one or two others, the difficulty isnt that much different, and those exceptions are entirely due to mechanical requirements that people still fail at unsynced.

[MistakeNot]

Most of the turns inside the Coils aren't terribly difficult, but some of the turns (T5, T9, T13, and to some extent T12) are very hard when done synced. Those turns are not doable unless (nearly) everyone knows the mechanics well - which is typically not the case with a DF group.