Why is Coil dead?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.


It's really not even close.

Actually, I think you are getting the time lines of things mixed up here.

2nd coil savage is the original, unturned version of 2nd coil. It was released while 2nd coil was still unnerfed. They even shared loot lockouts.

2nd coil savage is a much, much harder version of 2nd coil.

You may want to look up videos or mechanic guides before spouting that it's just unnerfed 2nd coil.

In normal t7 for instance, you only get 1 Renaud at a time, and the direction they face doesn't matter. In savage, you get 2, and they are also effected by the gaze mechanic, so they can petrify people they are facing as well.

[Barraind]

While coil on release was above the difficulty of a savage mode, currently, they're not.

Outside Nael and maybe one or two others, the difficulty isnt that much different, and those exceptions are entirely due to mechanical requirements that people still fail at unsynced.

[whiskeybravo]

It's really not even close.

Yea that's why most people didn't clear it until they got full 130 from final coil...

[YojimboM]

1) Coil is more on a level with Alexander/Omega Savage than with the NM-versions of those. So it was never big DF-content to begin with, because you just couldnt - and for most tiers probably still cant - clear it in DF.

No idea where this is coming from. People were running Coil in DF back in ARR. The only fights in Coil that might need an organized group are T12, T13, T8, and T9. Those four have a lot of insta-kill mechanics that need to be managed in a specific way, but all the rest can be mostly headbutted into submission, especially now with the huge amount of stats sync has.

Personally, I DFed most fights in all three Coils on farm to get glamour at one point, so I know for a fact it's easily doable.

Even Final Coil in ARR when it was relatively new it was pretty easy to manage T10 and T11 in DF since the mechanics are very simple to just put numbers on people or tell each role what to do.

Second Coil Savage was an entirely different animal than the regular raids though, obviously, but there's no reason to run those besides for the titles since their loot is identical to normal.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

No idea where this is coming from. People were running Coil in DF back in ARR. The only fights in Coil that might need an organized group are T12, T13, T8, and T9. Those four have a lot of insta-kill mechanics that need to be managed in a specific way, but all the rest can be mostly headbutted into submission, especially now with the huge amount of stats sync has.

Personally, I DFed most fights in all three Coils on farm to get glamour at one point, so I know for a fact it's easily doable.

Even Final Coil in ARR when it was relatively new it was pretty easy to manage T10 and T11 in DF since the mechanics are very simple to just put numbers on people or tell each role what to do.

Second Coil Savage was an entirely different animal than the regular raids though, obviously, but there's no reason to run those besides for the titles since their loot is identical to normal.

They were heavily nerfed and had echo by the time they made it to duty finder.

[YojimboM]

They were heavily nerfed and had echo by the time they made it to duty finder.

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

[MistakeNot]

Most of the turns inside the Coils aren't terribly difficult, but some of the turns (T5, T9, T13, and to some extent T12) are very hard when done synced. Those turns are not doable unless (nearly) everyone knows the mechanics well - which is typically not the case with a DF group.

[whiskeybravo]

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

There was also a degree of difficulty that can't exactly be measured, that we were all a lot less fantastic at the game when it was young. Go back and watch some of those first clears, people missing auto attacks and GCD uptime left and right. Very few people talked about any sort of meta or fighting for that 99%. People generally weren't near as optimized back then.

So sure, it's easy to look back now and say it wasn't that difficult after we've gone through trial and tribulation with HW savages and SB ultimates. But back when it was relevant content it would've been way too hard for average DF groups (compared to normal raids now).

As for *why* they aren't included in raid roulettes now.. They probably could be, but there's still more mechanics in them than in any of the story mode raids.

[grinkdaboy]

no mounts or anything as rewards. only titles and glam

[HyoMinPark]

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

I think you missed what Vidu was saying—Second Coil Savage was meant to be purely for the challenge, which is ultimately what Ultimate is: a challenge for the 1%. They may not be the same difficulty, but Second Coil Savage was significantly harder than anything else the game had offered at the time (even if they were meant to be reincarnations of the original unnerfed Second Coil, which it’s my understand that this is NOT the case). That’s what Ultimate is, which is why people are saying they are akin to Ultimate. Not that they ARE Ultimate.

Second Coil Savage has more mechanics present than regular Coil. I know in T9S, there are more meteor drops than in the regular T9. And this is from doing it unsynced at 60—I wasn’t playing when either were relevant, but T9S has more meteors to deal with than T9 did.

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.

I agree with Vidu, and I think experience is key. You can watch a fight all day long, but you don’t actually know what they’re like until you’re right in the middle of Bahamut’s, Nael’s, and Twintania’s divebombs. UCoB looks easier in video than it is in practice—saying that as someone who has actually been in the fight (although I haven’t cleared yet). Same for UwU (which I have cleared multiple times).

I’ve heard Second Coil Savage was unmatched in terms of difficulty back in the day. Much like UCoB and UwU still are.

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

Have you seen regular Duty Finder? They frequently tried to Vote Abandon on Susano and Lakshmi Normal Mode in Stormblood, and a lot of groups apparently have difficulty with Titania Normal Mode now (and PF struggles with her EX fight, for some reason). Back when Weeping City was the current 24-man, there were multiple threads demanding nerfs. Same with Dun Scaith. Same with Rabanastre. People asked for Final Steps of Faith story mode to be nerfed, too.

I don’t trust regular DF even with nerfed, Echo Coil.

As for the comment that they “weren’t Savage difficulty”—the original T5 had to be nerfed not too long after it released, because Twister was deemed to be “too unforgiving” (I believe only Blue Gartr had cleared it before this nerf happened). T6 was also nerfed, and I believe T7 was as well.