Lack of End Game Content

[HyoMinPark]

Well, I don't believe the reward does remains what it always was. You have to understand that by completing this content upon its patch release, you had the best weapon in the game. One that can be taken into further content into the next patch. Raiders LOVE a challenge and they LOVE being rewarded. Once the weapon is no longer best in slot, you are purely left with only aesthetics and as a raider, are less inclined to do the content.

I can concede being wrong on this one though - as this more of a personal preference.

The weapon in UCoB was only better than the one from O4S by one materia meld. Other than that, it was the same stats—you could just put 3 materia in it. Hardly a noticeable difference. That said, the UCoB weapon was made irrelevant with Sigmascape; the UwU one with Alphascape. The weapons are vanity—they do not provide any inherent advantage. They are entirely prestige.

Raiders do love a challenge. Ultimate is always a challenge. And do you honestly think that raiders stopped doing the Ultimate raids after the weapons were no longer relevant? That is objectively false. They are still participating in them even now after Shadowbringers launch. I have a friend who has been in UCoB since clearing the MSQ. The weapons being irrelevant have no impact on raiders doing this content.

GNB is a side job, not something that I play outside of instant queues. I have no intention of playing it end game.

I main a red mage, and have BiS possible, both Titania Weapons, Innocence Drops, Tomes and whatever Eden gear we've been able to get thus far.

But your suggestion otherwise would be creditable.

Except you said that you had BiS for Caster/Healer/Tank in your comment. I directly quoted you, my dude. You claimed you had BiS for three roles (not even jobs—roles), yet you clearly do not. But you’re out of stuff to do?

[Avraym]

The weapon in UCoB was only better than the one from O4S by one materia meld. Other than that, it was the same stats—you could just put 3 materia in it. Hardly a noticeable difference. That said, the UCoB weapon was made irrelevant with Sigmascape; the UwU one with Alphascape. The weapons are vanity—they do not provide any inherent advantage. They are entirely prestige.

Raiders do love a challenge. Ultimate is always a challenge. And do you honestly think that raiders stopped doing the Ultimate raids after the weapons were no longer relevant? That is objectively false. They are still participating in them even now after Shadowbringers launch. I have a friend who has been in UCoB since clearing the MSQ. The weapons being irrelevant have no impact on raiders doing this content.

And you've just prooved it right there.

UCoB was only better than the one from O4S by one materia meld, like you said.

How many players do you think participated in O4S vs UCoB.

I guarantee you, FAR more participated and cleared O4S.

Why? The reward was more or less the same but far easier to obtain.

The reward matters.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, I don't believe the reward does remains what it always was. You have to understand that by completing this content upon its patch release, you had the best weapon in the game. One that can be taken into further content into the next patch. Raiders LOVE a challenge and they LOVE being rewarded. Once the weapon is no longer best in slot, you are purely left with only aesthetics and as a raider, are less inclined to do the content.

I can concede being wrong on this one though - as this more of a personal preference.

... The Ultimate weapons had a single extra materia slot. That equates to an extra 40 additional Crit/Direct Hit—which is so minuscule you will never actually notice a difference. Regardless, Ultimate was never about the rewards but the prestige and challenge. You could literally offer nothing but the title and the majority of players who cleared would still have cleared. Being less inclined is entirely subjective. I got six of my seven clears well after the weapons themselves were pure aesthetic. It doesn't make a lick of difference to me because clearing Ultimate is the reward. Everything else is icing on the cake.

[Avraym]

... The Ultimate weapons had a single extra materia slot. That equates to an extra 40 additional Crit/Direct Hit—which is so minuscule you will never actually notice a difference. Regardless, Ultimate was never about the rewards but the prestige and challenge. You could literally offer nothing but the title and the majority of players who cleared would still have cleared. Being less inclined is entirely subjective. I got six of my seven clears well after the weapons themselves were pure aesthetic. It doesn't make a lick of difference to me because clearing Ultimate is the reward. Everything else is icing on the cake.

I would say, look at the statistics.

A LOT of people cleared O4S in contrast to Ultimate.

Ultimate was of course, more difficult, but the motivation to clear something that offers - as you've said, being so minuscule, players will have far less drive to complete it.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, the reward matters.

[HyoMinPark]

And you've just prooved it right there.

UCoB was only better than the one from O4S by one materia meld, like you said.

How many players do you think participated in O4S vs UCoB.

I guarantee you, FAR more participated and cleared O4S.

Why? The reward was more or less the same but far easier to obtain.

The reward matters.

....the difference in damage increase you would see is minuscule. There is no inherent advantage to having an Ultimate weapon over a Genji or Diamond weapon. Your entire premise is that raiders go for the best gear possible—yet now you’re contradicting yourself.

Well, I don't believe the reward does remains what it always was. You have to understand that by completing this content upon its patch release, you had the best weapon in the game. One that can be taken into further content into the next patch. Raiders LOVE a challenge and they LOVE being rewarded. Once the weapon is no longer best in slot, you are purely left with only aesthetics and as a raider, are less inclined to do the content.

But I cling to the ideology that they'll always be more inclined to do whatever content will get them best in slot even more.

Absolutely. There's a reason that the weapons have stats when they release Ultimate.

Raiders love the incentive to get a reward that not only shows off their ability to clear most difficult content, but enhances it also.

You are directly contradicting yourself now.


Far more participated in O4S than UCoB? Or O8S versus UwU. Of course. You have to clear O4S to even get into UCoB, and likewise with UwU. The same will be true of the coming Ultimates.

However, Ultimate was never designed with the intention to match or beat Savage participation numbers. It was designed for the hardcore, 1% of players that wanted a challenge because Savage has been progressively watered down since Midas. It is designed for the challenge. It isn’t designed to be on par with Savage—it is designed to be harder. Clearing it is more bragging rights than having a Savage BiS.



I haven’t proved anything other than you don’t seem to know what you’re arguing at this point. You claim raiders raid for the best gear in the game and stop when its irrelevant; that they want gear to show off their achievements. People point out that’s not the case with Ultimate—that players do it purely for the challenge and the rewards are basically vanity items and bragging rights to beat anything else in this game—and suddenly your argument is: “well, the reward wasn’t worth it because it’s the same as O4S/O8S”.

I would say, look at the statistics.

A LOT of people cleared O4S in contrast to Ultimate.

Ultimate was of course, more difficult, but the motivation to clear something that offers - as you've said, being so minuscule, players will have far less drive to complete it.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, the reward matters.

The statistics match the developers design. It wasn’t designed for 10%, 20%, or 30% clear rates. It was designed for the 1%. And the clear rates match. Ultimate is the most successful piece of content this game has ever released. Ultimate brought FFXIV into the Top 10 on Twitch. FFXIV’s visibility shot up after UCoB came out. Same with UwU. They were repeatedly streamed well past when they were first released, and that has never happened with any other piece of content. No other piece of content has the longevity Ultimate does.

The reward does matter. An Ultimate achievement—an earned one—means more than any Savage BiS you will ever obtain in this game.

[ForteNightshade]

And you've just prooved it right there.

UCoB was only better than the one from O4S by one materia meld, like you said.

How many players do you think participated in O4S vs UCoB.

I guarantee you, FAR more participated and cleared O4S.

Why? The reward was more or less the same but far easier to obtain.

The reward matters.

Not for most players challenging Ultimate. They are in it purely for the challenge. As I said in my initial response, I wager most who cleared would still have cleared even without a reward beyond "Congratulations." Look at how many groups are attempting to clear Savage week 1-2; some even going for World Prog. You get literally nothing out of that except self-satisfaction. Sure, you obtain the gear faster but someone who clears week eight will have that exact same gear. So why clear quickly? Because it's a challenge that some players fancy. Ultimate falls into this same category. The lack of clears compared to O4S has nothing to do with the reward but with the fact UCoB is significantly harder. They can't clear. Getting your weapon from Savage doesn't mean jack anymore. No one cares outside of saying "Congrats!" Ultimate? That's an achievement people still acknowledge two years later.

[Avraym]

....the difference in damage increase you would see is minuscule. There is no inherent advantage to having an Ultimate weapon over a Genji or Diamond weapon. Your entire premise is that raiders go for the best gear possible—yet now you’re contradicting yourself.







You are directly contradicting yourself now.


Far more participated in O4S than UCoB? Or O8S versus UwU. Of course. You have to clear O4S to even get into UCoB, and likewise with UwU. The same will be true of the coming Ultimates.

However, Ultimate was never designed with the intention to match or beat Savage participation numbers. It was designed for the hardcore, 1% of players that wanted a challenge because Savage has been progressively watered down since Midas. It is designed for the challenge. It isn’t designed to be on par with Savage—it is designed to be harder. Clearing it is more bragging rights than having a Savage BiS.



I haven’t proved anything other than you don’t seem to know what you’re arguing at this point. You claim raiders raid for the best gear in the game and stop when its irrelevant; that they want gear to show off their achievements. People point out that’s not the case with Ultimate—that players do it purely for the challenge and the rewards are basically vanity items and bragging rights to beat anything else in this game—and suddenly your argument is: “well, the reward wasn’t worth it because it’s the same as O4S/O8S”.

My contention is very clear. The reward matters.

We can both agree, the reward if measured by power, is essentially the same.

Ultimate was released months after Omega Savage, yet so much fewer participated and succeeded.

IT DID DETER players from doing it. This is is suggested by how few people even participated in it.

I believe, if the stats for ultimate, reflected just how much challenging it was than savage, you'd see more people pushing to complete it.

[Tint]

You're getting exactly what you want.

No.

I want more endgame PvE content too with actual gear rewards attached to it. Not raids, but grind heavy stuff like random stat gear from Diadem (but let me roll need this time, okay?) and of course the relic weapon and I want relic armor wich is as grind heavy as the weapon itself, more actually because the armor has to have 5 pieces.

I want the 100 easy floors of deep dungeon back like we had in Palace of the Dead, the 21 to 30 grind in Heavon on High was boring and unfun.

And I want that they remove the tome weapon from normal mode raid and reduce the item level of the tomestone armor, because as long as we get gear wich is that strong for basically no effort there is no reason to actually do the content I suggested above.


I am tired of expert roulette once a day, story- and 24 man raid once a week > wait for reset.

Because that's the actual casual player PvE endgame we have. Not even the relic weapon can hold a candle against the tomestone weapon.

And now here comes a raider who is unwilling to put the effort into ultimates because "it's just glamour" and says at the same time that we casuals have soo much content, but that content is also just for glamour and meaningless fluff as well.

[Avraym]

No.

I want more endgame PvE content too with actual gear rewards attached to it. Not raids, but grind heavy stuff like random stat gear from Diadem (but let me roll need this time, okay?) and of course the relic weapon and I want relic armor wich is as grind heavy as the weapon itself, more actually because the armor has to have 5 pieces.

I want the 100 easy floors of deep dungeon back like we had in Palace of the Dead, the 21 to 30 grind in Heavon on High was boring and unfun.

And I want that they remove the tome weapon from normal mode raid and reduce the item level of the tomestone armor, because as long as we get gear wich is that strong for basically no effort there is no reason to actually do the content I suggested above.

I am tired of expert roulette once a day, story- and 24 man raid once a week > wait for reset.

Because that's the actual casual player PvE endgame we have. Not even the relic weapon can hold a candle against the tomestone weapon.

And now here comes a raider who is unwilling to put the effort into ultimates because "it's just glamour" and says at the same time that we casuals have soo much content, but that content is also just for glamour and meaningless fluff as well.

I consider what your suggesting to be end game as well. And needed. You have some very good suggestions - and some that I would say, categorise you less as a casual player.

Why? You've show an inclination towards something grindy, which isn't something casual players tend to go for.

I think you're confusing me for someone who exclusively raids.

I would be very happy with what you're suggesting. I dont think end game content should viewed exclusively as raiding.

[HyoMinPark]

My contention is very clear. The reward matters.

We can both agree, the reward if measured by power, is essentially the same.

Ultimate was released months after Omega Savage, yet so much fewer participated and succeeded.

IT DID DETER players from doing it. This is is suggested by how few people even participated in it.

I believe, if the stats for ultimate, reflected just how much challenging it was than savage, you'd see more people pushing to complete it.

You directly contradicted yourself, and now you are trying to backpedal and change your argument. What deterred people from doing Ultimate compared to Neo-Exdeath is that Ultimate is significantly harder and players cannot do it. Increased stats on the weapons would not encourage more players to try Ultimate or push to complete it. It’s difficult to the point that most actually cannot do it, and that is the entire purpose of the content.

I don’t think you actually understand the design of Ultimate. You just think it’s another avenue for big boi strong gear, but that was never its intention. Its intention was to give the hardcore raiders a challenge because they were dissatisfied with the way Savage was getting progressively easier since Midas.