Lack of End Game Content

[Nariel]

It was a point in response to people not doing ultimate content because there are no rewards behind it. I actually like the system as is, But if people do not run stuff, maybe it is because they do not enjoy running it? Eureka actually had great rewards, and still has, from a gil earning peespecrive, yet very few run it because they hate that piece of content, same with crafting. Crafting actually has very great rewards at the end of the road, still few does it.

Meanwhile, the jumping tower in the summer event has literally Zero rewards attached to it, and yet people STILL spend HOURS to get to the top of that tower for literally no return.

To make a point that BiS needs to be exclusively locked behind savage because otherwise there is no reason to it is a silly one to me. People will play content they like even if the rewards are just bragging rights. I do think it needs to be so for game economical reasons though as otherwise raiding would just eat of people’s resources through things like food and pots and crafted gear while never generating something back, but that is an entirely different topic.

Oh my bad then, maybe too much on the edge :b.

If the content is fun people will do it, I totaly advocate for this, even when the reward may seems clumsy. Just, recently how many people endure dozens of CT/LotA for barely visible namazu earring. Savage is nice as it is reward wise, challenging content that offer a bit better stuff is logic. I'm pretty satisfied with the reward overall, I don't like savage and don't miss the stuff, I can still farm mount unsynch later anyway. My only regret is the relic in eureka, that is something I can't bear and will fight to death to get it out.

Ultimate could use a mount that said, even a ridiculously one, bahamut mount, ultima mount is over the top but hey its an over the top challenge anyway.

[Lunavi]

Oh my bad then, maybe too much on the edge :b.

If the content is fun people will do it, I totaly advocate for this, even when the reward may seems clumsy. Just, recently how many people endure dozens of CT/LotA for barely visible namazu earring. Savage is nice as it is reward wise, challenging content that offer a bit better stuff is logic. I'm pretty satisfied with the reward overall, I don't like savage and don't miss the stuff, I can still farm mount unsynch later anyway. My only regret is the relic in eureka, that is something I can't bear and will fight to death to get it out.

Ultimate could use a mount that said, even a ridiculously one, bahamut mount, ultima mount is over the top but hey its an over the top challenge anyway.

Don't worry, it is easy to be on edge when talking about stuff that matters to you.

Yes, Eureka... On paper, great content, in practice, not that great. I mean, it is something to do I guess? But they could put effort into making it more enjoyable. To have the relic hidden behind that is almost as bad as hiding it bethind the atom grind in 2.1. Almost.

This is why I am waiting patiently for NG+. I really want to see how they implement it. If done right, it could fill in the gap quite nicely. Ala Dark Souls bonfire kindling or Disgaea stronger enemies bills where one can kinda tailor the difficulty to ones own skill level. Or is it going to be a singular sync and done, likely just resulting in more or less of the same speedrun clears for everything again.

It's was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to in Shadowbringers, as if done well it could really change everything up for MMOs. Especially if they let NG+ dungeons drop gear tagged with a NG+ flag such that say late NG+ Stormblood gear could be getting up on par with current savage gear if there was enough challenge present in the NG+ stuff for it.

I wish for this so hard, alas, I doubt this will sadly not be the case. If so, why would they not implement the Mythic Dungeons + system from WoW which has been requested since the system debuted in WoW? They have talked about why they haven't added it in such ways that it sounds like it was due to it being very hard to do with the current code (like all things they don't add). But we can wish for the best.

[Avraym]

Why are ya'll bringing up the old raid loot system?

I never even said i prefered it lol.

Just that the current one is problematic (which it is).

All i said is that you will gear faster with a static than a pug with the current system (which you will).

[SaberMaxwell]

Why are ya'll bringing up the old raid loot system?

I never even said i prefered it lol.

Because the old raid loot system is all we have to compare it to, and compared to it, it's better. There will never be a perfect loot system in a game.

Just that the current one is problematic (which it is).

All i said is that you will gear faster with a static than a pug with the current system (which you will).

Hot take: It's not problematic that a group of 8 people can coordinate to gear the group faster than a solo agent rolling with seven randos can. I also can't envision a loot system short of giving everyone their own individual loot that would ever solve this problem.

[Avraym]

Because the old raid loot system is all we have to compare it to, and compared to it, it's better. There will never be a perfect loot system in a game.



Hot take: It's not problematic that a group of 8 people can coordinate to gear the group faster than a solo agent rolling with seven randos can. I also can't envision a loot system short of giving everyone their own individual loot that would ever solve this problem.

Hot Take: You're very ignorant if you think what we have now is ideal and couldn't be improved upon.

[SaberMaxwell]

Hot Take: You're very ignorant if you think what we have now is ideal and couldn't be improved upon.

Not problematic doesn't mean ideal.

[Avraym]

Not problematic doesn't mean ideal.

Why glorify something thats not ideal ?

[Hawklaser]

-Snip-

Not really. XI's Chains of Promathia expansion is a good example. Many really enjoyed that expansion, while the reward at the end was phenomenal it wad never really mandatory either.

People could have sold clears for the content, people tried to buy clears for the content, yet that never really took hold (at least on my server).

There were even really good sellable items behind certain CoP progression points, yet those never really became big sellers either.

You might wonder why those things never really happened. A lot of it had to do with the satisfaction that came from finally earning those rewards. There was also a bit of prestige that came with it too.

You think people get it bad when they show up with outdated gear and not really having a clue whats going on? That is nothing compared to how much flak those with something like CoPs Rajas Ring and being clueless got.

At some point people have to realize they may not be able to clear all content in every game they play, unless they are willing to put in some work to improve their play. Raiders selling clears of hard content to others isn't really doing the other person a favor in the long run, as it just delays that realization that they might actually have to put in a little work to beat something.

The current endgame problem is that there is a large gap in the expected performance between the difficulty tiers, such that it feels like you are missing 5 worlds of an 8 world mario game.

[Lunavi]

Not really. XI's Chains of Promathia expansion is a good example. Many really enjoyed that expansion, while the reward at the end was phenomenal it wad never really mandatory either.

People could have sold clears for the content, people tried to buy clears for the content, yet that never really took hold (at least on my server).

There were even really good sellable items behind certain CoP progression points, yet those never really became big sellers either.

You might wonder why those things never really happened. A lot of it had to do with the satisfaction that came from finally earning those rewards. There was also a bit of prestige that came with it too.

You think people get it bad when they show up with outdated gear and not really having a clue whats going on? That is nothing compared to how much flak those with something like CoPs Rajas Ring and being clueless got.

At some point people have to realize they may not be able to clear all content in every game they play, unless they are willing to put in some work to improve their play. Raiders selling clears of hard content to others isn't really doing the other person a favor in the long run, as it just delays that realization that they might actually have to put in a little work to beat something.

The current endgame problem is that there is a large gap in the expected performance between the difficulty tiers, such that it feels like you are missing 5 worlds of an 8 world mario game.

Never said selling clears was doing the buyer any favors, But that it is a good way raiders have to pay for their food, pots, and painfully overpriced crafted gear at the start of each raid cycle while doing content they enjoy, while at the same time offering high end crafters who make some of theirs’ pot’s, food, and armor and sell on MB a service they might actually find attractive. It is economy, not favors.

But I do 100% agree that what this game fundamentally needs to have a healthier raiding scene are more steps between normal raid, savage raid, and ultimate. The steps up in difficulty are indeed ridiculous. There needs to be one more step in terms of difficulty between EX difficulty and Savage difficulty and one further between savage and ultimate. However, this costs time and resources to make, so what should they scrap? What other content is as impopular as high-end raiding? I think more people even play around in the golden saucer than in Savage.

However, I still stand critical to the Notion that the only progression people can do as a battleclass should be hidden behind savage because otherwise no one will do it.

[Hawklaser]

But I do 100% agree that what this game fundamentally needs to have a healthier raiding scene are more steps between normal raid, savage raid, and ultimate. The steps up in difficulty are indeed ridiculous. There needs to be one more step in terms of difficulty between EX difficulty and Savage difficulty and one further between savage and ultimate. However, this costs time and resources to make, so what should they scrap? What other content is as impopular as high-end raiding? I think more people even play around in the golden saucer than in Savage.

However, I still stand critical to the Notion that the only progression people can do as a battleclass should be hidden behind savage because otherwise no one will do it.

This is why I am waiting patiently for NG+. I really want to see how they implement it. If done right, it could fill in the gap quite nicely. Ala Dark Souls bonfire kindling or Disgaea stronger enemies bills where one can kinda tailor the difficulty to ones own skill level. Or is it going to be a singular sync and done, likely just resulting in more or less of the same speedrun clears for everything again.

It's was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to in Shadowbringers, as if done well it could really change everything up for MMOs. Especially if they let NG+ dungeons drop gear tagged with a NG+ flag such that say late NG+ Stormblood gear could be getting up on par with current savage gear if there was enough challenge present in the NG+ stuff for it.