Lack of End Game Content

[Savagelf]

I think that ffxiv has end game like personal above point out that their many different form of end for the 24 mans dungeon to the hard more 8 man raid that come out, to extreme trial to the soon rebuild the city Isgard for crafters. end game is what you make it to be across there are treasure maps aswell. in wow end game is set by the devs. in ffxiv end game is set by the players that is beuty of ffxiv

[Losara]

I think that ffxiv has end game like personal above point out that their many different form of end for the 24 mans dungeon to the hard more 8 man raid that come out, to extreme trial to the soon rebuild the city Isgard for crafters. end game is what you make it to be across there are treasure maps aswell. in wow end game is set by the devs. in ffxiv end game is set by the players that is beuty of ffxiv

Yes. As someone who doesn't touch Extreme primal's on launch and doesn't do 8 man savage raids my definition of end game content is different to raiders.

There's enough casual content available to keep players busy for a month or 2 at least but in terms of savage tier content that would be up to the individuals to decide.

[Klb600]

I think that ffxiv has end game like personal above point out that their many different form of end for the 24 mans dungeon to the hard more 8 man raid that come out, to extreme trial to the soon rebuild the city Isgard for crafters. end game is what you make it to be across there are treasure maps aswell. in wow end game is set by the devs. in ffxiv end game is set by the players that is beuty of ffxiv

End game isn't set by the players. You make it sound like this is a sandbox of some sort, yes there are a wide variety of side activities to partake in(which btw exist in many MMO's) but they are not set by players nor are they related to the endgame progression that is referred to by most MMO players.

[Forever_Learning]

End game isn't set by the players. You make it sound like this is a sandbox of some sort, yes there are a wide variety of side activities to partake in(which btw exist in many MMO's) but they are not set by players nor are they related to the endgame progression that is referred to by most MMO players.

Actually, your definition is incorrect and I think you don't understand the difference between themepark and sandbox.

I think you maybe understand sandbox, where there is no clear path, and it's largely just an interaction between players in a particular setting (think EVE)

But Themepark is called themepark because there are a WIDE VARIETY of activities to do, like a themepark!

-you can ride the rollercoasters
-you can play the games
-you can see the shows
-you can go eat fancy food

Like Disneyland, it has different areas meant to cater to different tastes.

Thus, it makes no sense to tell people they are doing something wrong when they choose an area of the game to focus on when they find it enjoyable.

You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless.

That may be your opinion, but the Themepark isn't set up that way - it sets up to cater to a wide variety of tastes and interests.

Raids represents one area of the themepark, and if you want more raids, say you want more raids, but saying it means there's no end game is disingenuous.

[Arthrun]

Actually, your definition is incorrect and I think you don't understand the difference between themepark and sandbox.

I think you maybe understand sandbox, where there is no clear path, and it's largely just an interaction between players in a particular setting (think EVE)

But Themepark is called themepark because there are a WIDE VARIETY of activities to do, like a themepark!

-you can ride the rollercoasters
-you can play the games
-you can see the shows
-you can go eat fancy food

Like Disneyland, it has different areas meant to cater to different tastes.

Thus, it makes no sense to tell people they are doing something wrong when they choose an area of the game to focus on when they find it enjoyable.

You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless.

That may be your opinion, but the Themepark isn't set up that way - it sets up to cater to a wide variety of tastes and interests.

Raids represents one area of the themepark, and if you want more raids, say you want more raids, but saying it means there's no end game is disingenuous.

Quoting because I like this perception of how to view the issue. Quite honestly it fits of what FFXIV is.

When I think of Retail WoW with this analogy, the issue i see with BFA there is a TON of activities but the roller coaster (raids) Look pretty but just don't seem as well built with only 1 or 2 good loops, The shows (Story) seems like they didn't have time to write a proper script for them. A lot of food has been taken off the menus that people loved. (Class design). Warfronts just seem like theme park tour guides don't feel a real need to do them more than once. Island expeditions just seems like a tiny arcade to win tickets for that stuffed bear on the wall. PVP is that ring toss game that you come across but don't get to chose which toy you win.

Granted you can make the argument that FFXIV just shoved its theme park budget in other areas than what Wow did, but the shows (story) is utterly fantastic. There is a large variety of quality food. (class design.) even though the cook time can seem longer than everywhere else (2.5 GCD.) While they have only a few roller coasters you can see the quality that is put into every twist and turns. (raids).

I could try to list more but I think I want to go home now and actually get online to play the dang game lol.

[Klb600]

Actually, your definition is incorrect and I think you don't understand the difference between themepark and sandbox.

I think you maybe understand sandbox, where there is no clear path, and it's largely just an interaction between players in a particular setting (think EVE)

But Themepark is called themepark because there are a WIDE VARIETY of activities to do, like a themepark!

-you can ride the rollercoasters
-you can play the games
-you can see the shows
-you can go eat fancy food

Like Disneyland, it has different areas meant to cater to different tastes.

Thus, it makes no sense to tell people they are doing something wrong when they choose an area of the game to focus on when they find it enjoyable.

You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless.

That may be your opinion, but the Themepark isn't set up that way - it sets up to cater to a wide variety of tastes and interests.

Raids represents one area of the themepark, and if you want more raids, say you want more raids, but saying it means there's no end game is disingenuous.

And where exactly do I argue against that? Please get over yourself I am not misinterpreting the definition of either. Also I did not give the definition of anything, nor am I making the claims that you are asserting. The poster I replied to claimed that endgame of wow is set by the developers and FFXIV isn't, which by both titles being theme park MMO's is a completely ludicrous assertion to make, How the hell is FFXIV's endgame more "set by the player" then WoW's when both have the similar endgame structure, being that they are theme park MMO's?

"You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless"



And when exactly did I say anything of the like?

[Forever_Learning]

And where exactly do I argue against that? Please get over yourself I am not misinterpreting the definition of either. Also I did not give the definition of anything, nor am I making the claims that you are asserting. The poster I replied to claimed that endgame of wow is set by the developers and FFXIV isn't, which by both titles being theme park MMO's is a completely ludicrous assertion to make, How the hell is FFXIV's endgame more "set by the player" then WoW's when both have the similar endgame structure, being that they are theme park MMO's?

"You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless"



And when exactly did I say anything of the like?

If you feel I misinterpreted you, fine, but even with this statement you are incorrect.

The developers of WoW are much more controlling and manipulative with its players.

They've made the focus be entirely the gear treadmill, and they set out the path that a person should take to get that gear.

As a result, you have many many many people doing things, that they don't enjoy, just for the eventual carrot down the road.

They've created a system where if you want to be a top raider, you must engage in all sorts of content that you may usually avoid.

Recently, for example, they made something that is valuable for PvE, be something you get from PvP.

Imagine if they made the best chest piece for your job be a reward from Chocobo racing, or your best ring came from being top rep with a beast tribe.

On top of that, they put in so many different timers and time-gate various things, designed to make logging in every day for 1-2 hours and doing very specific things be the most optimal way to play. So, no one is really playing the game, they are just egg timing it (go in, do x, log out), next day (go in, do x, log out), and so on.

Raiders in WoW constantly feel forced to engage in activities they don't want to do.

One of the most hated pieces of content is warfronts, but people will do them just because the gear rewards are so inflated.

People could do Mythic+ up to say level 20, but 99% stop at level 10 because that's where the gear rewards stop.

Ain't too many people doing them just for the challenge or fun.

Professions are virtually worthless because they ensure people are unable to craft anything too good for raiding as then players could avoid some things.

Player agency itself has been completely removed to ensure time and effort won't lead to a player having an advantage over others.

***
There is a reason people are leaving in droves and it's often because they are sick of blizzard telling them how they should play the game (common quote)

For all these reasons, the themepark mentality is much stronger in FF14.

[Hawklaser]

Now that I got a lil more time to post, and not on mobile and dealing with those shenanigans...

On the lack of endgame content, I don't think a Theme Park MMO is ever going to truly solve that problem for the really hardcore players. A more sandbox one might be able to. The reason I think this? Is it really has to do with what sticks with players and actually feels like meaningful progression.

Take a moment, and think about what you remember more. Finally killing whatever PITA boss for the first time, or getting the gear from them? I know for me, its the stories I acquire along the way instead of all eventually to be discarded stat sticks. Even in FFXI with their merits and class mastery points, or other games with alternative advancement systems, those systems just boiled down to grindy more permanent stat sticks.

For crafters and gathers, what they do has to be relevant to other endgame activities. Theme park MMO's often have dungeon gear treadmills, so crafted gear becomes pretty much useless outside of initial starting point gear. So that would mean there would need to be something else that has an impact on aspects of the end game that has a constant demand for items that can only be crafted by players, for older WoW players think along the lines of the supply quest to open I think it was AQ?, but not just the initial opening, keeping it open.

For those that like raiding and the like, you really need to get to the bottom of what are they are actually after. Bigger numbers, bragging rights, or epic stories? So for the bigger numbers aka the loot treadmill, without procedurally generated content, there really is no way to satisfy that long term and even have a chance of keeping it challenging at the rate players consume content. If its bragging rights and epic stories, this I think can be done simply by slowing down the loot treadmill by making optional hard content with no or few gear rewards. The idea is they are doing this for the challenge, not the gear. A clever way of doing would be having the hard optional dungeons require a crafted item to enter, and reward items crafters would need to craft the entry materials. Clears could reward progressively higher quality tiers of materials, which could allow a skilled crafter to make an even higher quality version of the entry item to open a higher difficulty version of the dungeon. So Normal item-> Normal Dungeon -> HQ Item -> Extreme -> HQ 2 -> Savage and so on. This creates a nice linkage between endgame raiding and crafting.

Ultimately, however, the endgame content problem I don't think is going away until someone figures out a way to successfully get and stay away from the dreaded gear treadmills players seem so fond of.

[Xandos]

Here I am just now going to fetch the second twin. I think I just hit 71. Looks like I have plenty of stuff to look forward to. I should go back and finish Omega and Ivilace raids too.

[Insertcoins]

I personally think it's abit to early to judge shadow's endgame content... like it's not even a month old yet. We don't even have the new raids yet... hell the 24 mans coming out are a month or so away. We haven't gotten everything yet. While I get you want more but the problem you're goign to run into is people see that and see you don't have everything maxed out. They are goign to push back, and they are goign to push back hard. It's like the people complaining about not having actual hard content but then you look and see they never did anything harder then freaking expert. Noone is going to listen to that... is it fair... not really but would you listen to someone who's never played a fighting game tellign you fighting games are bad? Or if they only played MK and said Street Fighter was a button masher? I hope you wouldn't cause thats what it looks like. This game has ALOT to do.. the problem is that what you like to do is only the tip of a VERY large mountain. And the other thing is timing... again I can't stress this enough... shadows literally just came out. We DON'T even have sav yet. Give it time. End game is coming.