Lack of End Game Content

[MonteCristo]

..going back and forth isnt solving jack...they fix eureka and innovate endgame great..if not its simple stay unsubbed and move on...much easier to just change the channel rather than going to war against the cult in these forum....Long live casual cult fantasy 14 /cheers

[Zabuza]

..going back and forth isnt solving jack...they fix eureka and innovate endgame great..if not its simple stay unsubbed and move on...much easier to just change the channel rather than going to war against the cult in these forum....Long live casual cult fantasy 14 /cheers

Yeah, I heard the rumors of how this game has a unique group of people that defends this game no matter what. Thing is, I have always loved the Final Fantasy franchise. That is why I suggest something which I feel would improve the game. Good luck getting the community here to admit the game has a single fault though. To them, it's perfect and anyone who points out what they perceive as a shortcoming with the game, the fault is clearly with them and not the game design, because this game is unable to make a mistake anywhere. The game is immaculate and how dare you imply it might be lacking somewhere.

[Mitracia]

145 pages. It is safe to say that the issue is quite real.

Let us be honest, 15$ a month will never justify the lack of and mundane end-game content that we have just because the story is somewhat good. I feel bad for the defenders.

[Hawklaser]

The crux of the complaint is lack of content that directly increases your item level at level 80 , which I will applaud forever and view as a strength of this game.

If the gear you obtained at level 80 was your final gear, many of the people asking for more savage bosses wouldn't even bother doing savage in the first place.

The crux is a lack of content for level cap period. New higher ilvl gear is not really needed.

The problem of everything not current endgame always being outdated is thanks to Vertical progression systems that came into favor once WoW started doing expansions. Games with more Horizontal progression ended up with much more robust and varied endgame. There is a reason WoW's epic weapon Windfury became a Joke Meme while FFXI's RME gear stayed long term goals for any one serious about a class.

Why were relics and their related content looked forward to in XIV? Because Square had already proven in XI that they did respect a player's time investment with how they handled RME in XI. Its why in 2.0 I was pushing to get the relic at the time despite how much of a pain Titan Hard was, because I trusted that SE would handle things better than the perpetual obsolescence that normally accompany Vertical Progression MMOs. So each time they revisit relics, I bet people are hoping they get it right this time instead of just another rung on the ladder.

Most looking for more endgame content are wanting more variety and/or challenge. You could potentially make every single piece of gear in an MMO cosmetic, and if the gameplay and content was solid across the whole game it could preform well. Perpetual character progress isn't needed to make a good game. Perpetual player skill progress can be a different story.

[Forever_Learning]

The crux is a lack of content for level cap period. New higher ilvl gear is not really needed.

I agree there is a lack of level cap content. I can appreciate the desire to have content where you can use all the things you have accumulated after levelling. But I’m also saying that many of the people complaining are much more focused on the associated reward rather than the content itself.

The problem of everything not current endgame always being outdated is thanks to Vertical progression systems that came into favor once WoW started doing expansions. Games with more Horizontal progression ended up with much more robust and varied endgame. There is a reason WoW's epic weapon Windfury became a Joke Meme while FFXI's RME gear stayed long term goals for any one serious about a class.

I'm totally supportive of horizontal progression. I like the idea of a boss gauntlet similar to blue mage, and the reward could be pets, mounts, allied seals. However, I also suspect that many of the complainers actually do want vertical progression, like a level between savage and mythic, or more raid bosses. When people say there is lack of end-game content, those are often the things they request. To me, that means they are chasing more vertical progression rather than horizontal progression, which I agree could be a good thing as long as the rewards are done right. Don't want to get into a situation like WoW where people do end-game content they dislike just for the reward.

Most looking for more endgame content are wanting more variety and/or challenge. You could potentially make every single piece of gear in an MMO cosmetic, and if the gameplay and content was solid across the whole game it could preform well. Perpetual character progress isn't needed to make a good game. Perpetual player skill progress can be a different story.

Here is where we disagree. I agree that people in general are looking for variety and challenge, but some of the people complaining about end-game, aren't actually interested in variety or challenge. The game already has a lot of variety, but they are only interested in one specific type of content, which is often raids. The game also already has some very challenging things in it, but these same people actually avoid it. and will say things like 'not worth it', meaning it isn't going to increase their item level.

I think you may be looking at this more generally than I am. I agree with you about horizontal progression, as well as the importance of end-game content, but I'm saying that some individuals complaining truly do want vertical progression and a gear treadmill. Why were so many pages just discussing tome rewards?

If you took away the gear from savage, but increased the rate of pets, mounts, and gear that could only be used for cosmetic purposes - how many would do it? I believe the so-called casual crowd would love doing it over and over while having fun, while ironically it would be the so-called hardcore crowd complaining about end-game content that would actually avoid it.

Cool story bro...or maam whichever...like i said..i could do all if it within a weeks time just to prove a point then where do we stand? In the same exact spot....with no problem being solved. Dont you think there is a reason people skip savage? PSA....tome gear is only a few ilvls below it!!!! What the hell is the point??? OH WAIT THATS RIGHT!!! The flashy glittery mount that drops that u can go back to ur fc to show off for no gd reason other than looking cool....microwave content vs oven baked content is just like food...think about it

Hawklasser - does this sound to you like someone who is craving variety and challenge, or more focused on the reward it gives? In particular, how much vertical progression something provides. When I read posts like this, I don't see an individual who craves variety, challenge, or horizontal progression. To me, it sounds more like they want to know how much a piece of content will increase their item level.

I think SE has balanced this really well. Ultimates were a fantastic idea, but it's also good that old endgame content becomes obsolete. -snip -

I think you misunderstood me because I agree with everything you posted. When I said content becoming obsolete, I meant people stop doing something because the gear rewards are no longer the best. The thing I love the most about this game is all the stand-alone content. Somewhere, every week, a new blue mage gets created.

[Hawklaser]

I think you may be looking at this more generally than I am. I agree with you about horizontal progression, as well as the importance of end-game content, but I'm saying that some individuals complaining truly do want vertical progression and a gear treadmill. Why were so many pages just discussing tome rewards?

If you took away the gear from savage, but increased the rate of pets, mounts, and gear that could only be used for cosmetic purposes - how many would do it? I believe the so-called casual crowd would love doing it over and over while having fun, while ironically it would be the so-called hardcore crowd complaining about end-game content that would actually avoid it.

I might indeed be looking at it from a broader perspective. Might be due to an interest in game design myself. (I'd recommend the YT channel Extra Credits to anyone with a slight interest in it, as they do touch on things such as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards, which is quite relative here. https://youtu.be/h86g-XgUCA8)

As to the change on removing savage gear and making it mostly cosmetic, I think that would be an interesting experiment to try sometime.

Hawklasser - does this sound to you like someone who is craving variety and challenge, or more focused on the reward it gives? In particular, how much vertical progression something provides. When I read posts like this, I don't see an individual who craves variety, challenge, or horizontal progression. To me, it sounds more like they want to know how much a piece of content will increase their item level.

On one front, I would agree with you, it does seem like they just want the reward. But on another front it also sounds like someone that is frustrated that some of what is considered nearly the games hardest content's potential rewards has no meaningful separation from the rewards one can get from running daily roulettes and the handful of 80 dungeons ad nauseum. Reminds me a lot of why WoW's Windfury became more known as Memefury, work hard to get it, then random quest reward is equal or better.

I'm not against hard content having meaningful rewards, as some do like an extrinsic reward to chase (aka the carrot on the stick), but when one can get very similar rewards from doing something of much lower difficulty, it quickly raises the question of why do the hard content in the first place if one finds no intrinsic reward from completing it?

Consider in many other games, if you beat a hard optional boss or some other built in challenge, if you get something silly like 1 gil that you can get pretty much anywhere else, don't you feel let down or insulted? Even if you were doing it for a challenge alone, rewards like that still hurt. Yet a unique but worthless item doesn't create that feeling as often. Psychology is weird isn't it?

[MonteCristo]

I might indeed be looking at it from a broader perspective. Might be due to an interest in game design myself. (I'd recommend the YT channel Extra Credits to anyone with a slight interest in it, as they do touch on things such as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards, which is quite relative here. https://youtu.be/h86g-XgUCA8)

As to the change on removing savage gear and making it mostly cosmetic, I think that would be an interesting experiment to try sometime.



On one front, I would agree with you, it does seem like they just want the reward. But on another front it also sounds like someone that is frustrated that some of what is considered nearly the games hardest content's potential rewards has no meaningful separation from the rewards one can get from running daily roulettes and the handful of 80 dungeons ad nauseum. Reminds me a lot of why WoW's Windfury became more known as Memefury, work hard to get it, then random quest reward is equal or better.

I'm not against hard content having meaningful rewards, as some do like an extrinsic reward to chase (aka the carrot on the stick), but when one can get very similar rewards from doing something of much lower difficulty, it quickly raises the question of why do the hard content in the first place if one finds no intrinsic reward from completing it?

Consider in many other games, if you beat a hard optional boss or some other built in challenge, if you get something silly like 1 gil that you can get pretty much anywhere else, don't you feel let down or insulted? Even if you were doing it for a challenge alone, rewards like that still hurt. Yet a unique but worthless item doesn't create that feeling as often. Psychology is weird isn't it?

This sums up EXACTLY what i am trying to say about savage content. I stopped because the reward just doesn't justify the challenge when tomes are involved. Which is exactly why the real narrative is...if they arent going to make the rewards worth it then can we at least have something that is innovative and fun to do at max level. I can duty finder all content and complete it with barely saying one word to anyone in party esp if i know exactly what im doing in the fight. Just want something i can band together with friends and enjoy at an end game level. This really feels like a single player game with randoms added in alot of the time. Is that what mmos are now?

What happened to gathering my comrades and taking on gods? What happened to being in the open field and feeling the thrill of anything can happen? What happened to actually being proud of the gear we worked hard to get rather then it being meaningless after the next patch. I could go on but im sure the cult will blast what im saying to smithereens regardless of what logic i use to back what im explaining.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

This sums up EXACTLY what i am trying to say about savage content. I stopped because the reward just doesn't justify the challenge when tomes are involved. Which is exactly why the real narrative is...if they arent going to make the rewards worth it then can we at least have something that is innovative and fun to do at max level. I can duty finder all content and complete it with barely saying one word to anyone in party esp if i know exactly what im doing in the fight. Just want something i can band together with friends and enjoy at an end game level. This really feels like a single player game with randoms added in alot of the time. Is that what mmos are now?

So.... Savage? Don't do it for the loot. Do it for the fun. No rando's involved if you have friends. And its endgame.

[kartana]

The problem of everything not current endgame always being outdated is thanks to Vertical progression systems that came into favor once WoW started doing expansions.

It's not just that. I would argue that even the current endgame content becomes outdated way too fast these days. Almost everything becomes roulette fodder one month after it gets released. Why not have the current extreme trials have drop higher gear when they release the third one (ShB end boss Ex trial)? Maybe increase the damage a bit or add a new mechanic. Why isn't this a thing instead of the constant tombstone, roulette treadmill?
As brilliant as ShB is, give me something to look forward to when I am max level with the job I main and love. They need to freshen up the end-game progression and also keep the current content alive way longer.

[ForteNightshade]

It's not just that. I would argue that even the current endgame content becomes outdated way too fast these days. Almost everything becomes roulette fodder one month after it gets released. Why not have the current extreme trials have drop higher gear when they release the third one (ShB end boss Ex trial)? Maybe increase the damage a bit or add a new mechanic. Why isn't this a thing instead of the constant tombstone, roulette treadmill?
As brilliant as ShB is, give me something to look forward to when I am max level with the job I main and love. They need to freshen up the end-game progression and also keep the current content alive way longer.

Because doing so would pull people away from the newer Extreme. Not to mention, a lot of people don't necessarily want to go back to Innocence and Titania for weapons a second time. While, in theory, they could do something to improve stat progress. A lot of it becomes an illusion. Lets face it, if they added a bunch of bonuses like 5% increase to whomever you tether using Dragon Sight or Geirskogul is reduced to 20 seconds. Theorycrafters will work out whichever is mathematically superior and the rest will be considered fodder. Horizontal progression "worked" in older games like FFXI because they weren't trying to balance anything. FFXIV, on the other hand, wants each job to feel both viable and balanced within its role. This tends to result in less interesting gear progression.

Could they balance bonuses enough that the differences were negligible? Maybe. I wouldn't envy the enormous workload that would put on the dev team though. Imagine having to make say, three full sets of gear for each job all within a hair of one another damage wise.