Lack of End Game Content

[Asiragan]

I don’t really see an issue with the substat system other than the way it scales as endgame progresses. Critical Hit tends to come out on top while the others fall behind. There only being 4 is not that huge of a deal for me. I don’t miss the days of Accuracy melds.

The problem with this substat system is that it's an hindrance to make other content rewarding enough to be relevant. I'm not even talking about accuracy (and IMO it's a good think that they removed it. Never understood how I could miss a boss the size of a building...).

Let's list all the substat there is actually : Determination, Critic, Direct hit, tenacity, piety, spellspeed, skillspeed. 7 substats in total; two of them are completly useless : Piety and Tenacity. Spellspeed and Skillspeed are to attain a certain cap and that only for some rare jobs. Determination is the go to if you can't have more of the two major substats : Critical and Direct hit.

In a way, there's only 3 relevants substats, but everyone goes for two of them. Out of seven. So, how do you make interesting rewards for new content with only that? Simple answer : You can't.

There's no proc on item, no other interesting secondary stats that make you want to commit to an other content than the usual savage/roulette. Which is why is already see the new Diadem to fell flat on release. Because there's simply no end goal to works towards to.

Idk if it’ll work for you, but I tend to just do things with friends. Seems to keep me entertained even when I’m on a battle job at level cap.

Did that too during Heavensward. Worked great until everyone burned out on Stormblood release. Now I barely see them anymore. The few that stayed just come to raid savage and leave as soon as it's done. They simply don't see why they should stay any longer after that. New players joined, new blood was good for the FC, but 6 years of the same music on repeat took it's toll, and I can't muster the motivation too bring them to yet another dog farming on old primals that I can't care about. Especially since mount farming is really something I dislike.

But this game is intentionally designed for players to not have to log in every day to try to keep up. Works very well for me when school is in session, as sometimes I cannot log in until the weekends. As I said, if people are looking for something like that—where they have something new to do at level cap every day outside of farming—then they will get bored very quickly.

Hence the post about the game having no end game I guess

I edited my post to clarify on both. I was posting right as my queue had popped. Either way, they’re both there to preserve the challenge of the content. With your main class (SAM), it’s not as if you’d be losing too many skills that would suddenly make your rotation unbearable to do at 70. They did a much better job with keeping 70 rotations not dull compared to 50 rotations (which are fairly butchered) or 60 rotations (which sometimes have arbitrary limits like BRD’s 20% Repertoire lock instead of the normal 40%).

The only skills I would actively miss on DNC would be Saber Dance and Flourish. But my rotation is more or less the same at 80 compared to 70. Same with BRD—I’d lose Apex Arrow and the Army’s Muse trait. Which, the former isn’t exactly a game-breaking skill and the latter isn’t a game-breaking trait. The level sync doesn’t bother me.

As for item level, it is preserved at i345 and i375 for UCoB and UwU specifically. The minimum is 5 item levels below that, so it’s more or less minimum item level.

I'm actually a DRG now, switched class at ShB release and forgot to change it on forum.

I get what your saying, but the fact that I'm missing skills or traits is something I really dislike about level sync in this game, and I could probably never go to Ultimate because of that. But on this point, it's just personal preference, really. Still I would really like it if level sync would allow to keep spells learned at higher level...

Good luck getting the community here to admit the game has a single fault though. To them, it's perfect and anyone who points out what they perceive as a shortcoming with the game, the fault is clearly with them and not the game design, because this game is unable to make a mistake anywhere. The game is immaculate and how dare you imply it might be lacking somewhere.

Honestly at this point I'm just posting to pass time rather than trying to convince anyone at all.

[galbsadi]

I'm not even talking about accuracy (and IMO it's a good think that they removed it. Never understood how I could miss a boss the size of a building...).

Note: I'm not saying this to defend accuracy being gone, I'm also glad it's no longer there.

To answer your question, though, at least from the perspective of other RPGs, the idea as I've understood it wasn't that you couldn't necessarily hit something the side of a building as much as you couldn't effectively do so...similar to how if you were the size of a bee it might be pretty ineffective to hit something the size of a human if you did not do so in the right spot.

In D&D, a 'miss' might not be that you didn't hit the dragon that's as tall as a skyscraper as much as that maybe your swing just bounced off its scales and did no damage, etc.

In that perspective, accuracy could almost be seen as your ability to not only hit the giant thing, but also do so in a spot that will actually cause damage.

[MonteCristo]

Oh please, "make an example out of me" with your super, special, awesome abilities! I am certain to be amazed and astonished at how phenomenal you truly are!

Sarcasm aside. Nothing 1.0 offered approached the difficulty of Gordias or Midas Savage nor either of the current Ultimates. And unlike you, I've actually partaken in the endgame.

Cool story bro...or maam whichever...like i said..i could do all if it within a weeks time just to prove a point then where do we stand? In the same exact spot....with no problem being solved. Dont you think there is a reason people skip savage? PSA....tome gear is only a few ilvls below it!!!! What the hell is the point??? OH WAIT THATS RIGHT!!! The flashy glittery mount that drops that u can go back to ur fc to show off for no gd reason other than looking cool....microwave content vs oven baked content is just like food...think about it

[Asiragan]

Note: I'm not saying this to defend accuracy being gone, I'm also glad it's no longer there.

To answer your question, though, at least from the perspective of other RPGs, the idea as I've understood it wasn't that you couldn't necessarily hit something the side of a building as much as you couldn't effectively do so...similar to how if you were the size of a bee it might be pretty ineffective to hit something the size of a human if you did not do so in the right spot.

In D&D, a 'miss' might not be that you didn't hit the dragon that's as tall as a skyscraper as much as that maybe your swing just bounced off its scales and did no damage, etc.

In that perspective, accuracy could almost be seen as your ability to not only hit the giant thing, but also do so in a spot that will actually cause damage.

Didn't saw it this way, but that's an interesting view on it, and I think I like it

[Forever_Learning]

The crux is a lack of content for level cap period. New higher ilvl gear is not really needed.

I agree there is a lack of level cap content. I can appreciate the desire to have content where you can use all the things you have accumulated after levelling. But I’m also saying that many of the people complaining are much more focused on the associated reward rather than the content itself.

The problem of everything not current endgame always being outdated is thanks to Vertical progression systems that came into favor once WoW started doing expansions. Games with more Horizontal progression ended up with much more robust and varied endgame. There is a reason WoW's epic weapon Windfury became a Joke Meme while FFXI's RME gear stayed long term goals for any one serious about a class.

I'm totally supportive of horizontal progression. I like the idea of a boss gauntlet similar to blue mage, and the reward could be pets, mounts, allied seals. However, I also suspect that many of the complainers actually do want vertical progression, like a level between savage and mythic, or more raid bosses. When people say there is lack of end-game content, those are often the things they request. To me, that means they are chasing more vertical progression rather than horizontal progression, which I agree could be a good thing as long as the rewards are done right. Don't want to get into a situation like WoW where people do end-game content they dislike just for the reward.

Most looking for more endgame content are wanting more variety and/or challenge. You could potentially make every single piece of gear in an MMO cosmetic, and if the gameplay and content was solid across the whole game it could preform well. Perpetual character progress isn't needed to make a good game. Perpetual player skill progress can be a different story.

Here is where we disagree. I agree that people in general are looking for variety and challenge, but some of the people complaining about end-game, aren't actually interested in variety or challenge. The game already has a lot of variety, but they are only interested in one specific type of content, which is often raids. The game also already has some very challenging things in it, but these same people actually avoid it. and will say things like 'not worth it', meaning it isn't going to increase their item level.

I think you may be looking at this more generally than I am. I agree with you about horizontal progression, as well as the importance of end-game content, but I'm saying that some individuals complaining truly do want vertical progression and a gear treadmill. Why were so many pages just discussing tome rewards?

If you took away the gear from savage, but increased the rate of pets, mounts, and gear that could only be used for cosmetic purposes - how many would do it? I believe the so-called casual crowd would love doing it over and over while having fun, while ironically it would be the so-called hardcore crowd complaining about end-game content that would actually avoid it.

Cool story bro...or maam whichever...like i said..i could do all if it within a weeks time just to prove a point then where do we stand? In the same exact spot....with no problem being solved. Dont you think there is a reason people skip savage? PSA....tome gear is only a few ilvls below it!!!! What the hell is the point??? OH WAIT THATS RIGHT!!! The flashy glittery mount that drops that u can go back to ur fc to show off for no gd reason other than looking cool....microwave content vs oven baked content is just like food...think about it

Hawklasser - does this sound to you like someone who is craving variety and challenge, or more focused on the reward it gives? In particular, how much vertical progression something provides. When I read posts like this, I don't see an individual who craves variety, challenge, or horizontal progression. To me, it sounds more like they want to know how much a piece of content will increase their item level.

I think SE has balanced this really well. Ultimates were a fantastic idea, but it's also good that old endgame content becomes obsolete. -snip -

I think you misunderstood me because I agree with everything you posted. When I said content becoming obsolete, I meant people stop doing something because the gear rewards are no longer the best. The thing I love the most about this game is all the stand-alone content. Somewhere, every week, a new blue mage gets created.

[Hawklaser]

I think you may be looking at this more generally than I am. I agree with you about horizontal progression, as well as the importance of end-game content, but I'm saying that some individuals complaining truly do want vertical progression and a gear treadmill. Why were so many pages just discussing tome rewards?

If you took away the gear from savage, but increased the rate of pets, mounts, and gear that could only be used for cosmetic purposes - how many would do it? I believe the so-called casual crowd would love doing it over and over while having fun, while ironically it would be the so-called hardcore crowd complaining about end-game content that would actually avoid it.

I might indeed be looking at it from a broader perspective. Might be due to an interest in game design myself. (I'd recommend the YT channel Extra Credits to anyone with a slight interest in it, as they do touch on things such as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards, which is quite relative here. https://youtu.be/h86g-XgUCA8)

As to the change on removing savage gear and making it mostly cosmetic, I think that would be an interesting experiment to try sometime.

Hawklasser - does this sound to you like someone who is craving variety and challenge, or more focused on the reward it gives? In particular, how much vertical progression something provides. When I read posts like this, I don't see an individual who craves variety, challenge, or horizontal progression. To me, it sounds more like they want to know how much a piece of content will increase their item level.

On one front, I would agree with you, it does seem like they just want the reward. But on another front it also sounds like someone that is frustrated that some of what is considered nearly the games hardest content's potential rewards has no meaningful separation from the rewards one can get from running daily roulettes and the handful of 80 dungeons ad nauseum. Reminds me a lot of why WoW's Windfury became more known as Memefury, work hard to get it, then random quest reward is equal or better.

I'm not against hard content having meaningful rewards, as some do like an extrinsic reward to chase (aka the carrot on the stick), but when one can get very similar rewards from doing something of much lower difficulty, it quickly raises the question of why do the hard content in the first place if one finds no intrinsic reward from completing it?

Consider in many other games, if you beat a hard optional boss or some other built in challenge, if you get something silly like 1 gil that you can get pretty much anywhere else, don't you feel let down or insulted? Even if you were doing it for a challenge alone, rewards like that still hurt. Yet a unique but worthless item doesn't create that feeling as often. Psychology is weird isn't it?

[MonteCristo]

I might indeed be looking at it from a broader perspective. Might be due to an interest in game design myself. (I'd recommend the YT channel Extra Credits to anyone with a slight interest in it, as they do touch on things such as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards, which is quite relative here. https://youtu.be/h86g-XgUCA8)

As to the change on removing savage gear and making it mostly cosmetic, I think that would be an interesting experiment to try sometime.



On one front, I would agree with you, it does seem like they just want the reward. But on another front it also sounds like someone that is frustrated that some of what is considered nearly the games hardest content's potential rewards has no meaningful separation from the rewards one can get from running daily roulettes and the handful of 80 dungeons ad nauseum. Reminds me a lot of why WoW's Windfury became more known as Memefury, work hard to get it, then random quest reward is equal or better.

I'm not against hard content having meaningful rewards, as some do like an extrinsic reward to chase (aka the carrot on the stick), but when one can get very similar rewards from doing something of much lower difficulty, it quickly raises the question of why do the hard content in the first place if one finds no intrinsic reward from completing it?

Consider in many other games, if you beat a hard optional boss or some other built in challenge, if you get something silly like 1 gil that you can get pretty much anywhere else, don't you feel let down or insulted? Even if you were doing it for a challenge alone, rewards like that still hurt. Yet a unique but worthless item doesn't create that feeling as often. Psychology is weird isn't it?

This sums up EXACTLY what i am trying to say about savage content. I stopped because the reward just doesn't justify the challenge when tomes are involved. Which is exactly why the real narrative is...if they arent going to make the rewards worth it then can we at least have something that is innovative and fun to do at max level. I can duty finder all content and complete it with barely saying one word to anyone in party esp if i know exactly what im doing in the fight. Just want something i can band together with friends and enjoy at an end game level. This really feels like a single player game with randoms added in alot of the time. Is that what mmos are now?

What happened to gathering my comrades and taking on gods? What happened to being in the open field and feeling the thrill of anything can happen? What happened to actually being proud of the gear we worked hard to get rather then it being meaningless after the next patch. I could go on but im sure the cult will blast what im saying to smithereens regardless of what logic i use to back what im explaining.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

This sums up EXACTLY what i am trying to say about savage content. I stopped because the reward just doesn't justify the challenge when tomes are involved. Which is exactly why the real narrative is...if they arent going to make the rewards worth it then can we at least have something that is innovative and fun to do at max level. I can duty finder all content and complete it with barely saying one word to anyone in party esp if i know exactly what im doing in the fight. Just want something i can band together with friends and enjoy at an end game level. This really feels like a single player game with randoms added in alot of the time. Is that what mmos are now?

So.... Savage? Don't do it for the loot. Do it for the fun. No rando's involved if you have friends. And its endgame.

[MonteCristo]

So.... Savage? Don't do it for the loot. Do it for the fun. No rando's involved if you have friends. And its endgame.

Id rather do 1.0 hamlet than savage in its current state if im being brutally honest

[Duram]

Every expansion is the same. Hit max, get decent gear pre savage, can't find a static, unsubscribe. I wish there was more to do other than savage, give me something to work towards. I do like leveling alts but that gets boring when you know once you hit max there isn't anything to do.