Lack of End Game Content

[NekoNova]

WoW raiding has been in decline partly because Mythic plus is harder content, but better rewards are obtainable from overland content. This has pushed a significant part of the raiding community away. Bragging rights are a part of it, but it's important there's a reward as an incentive.

Wow has been in decline for me for over 6 years....

[Kamatsu]

This is true, raiders do love the bragging rights.

But I cling to the ideology that they'll always be more inclined to do whatever content will get them best in slot even more.

But that's purely an opinion.

And this is what the truth of what is wanted - endgame raiding that only a small % of players can, and even will, do that provides them with better gear than anyone else... which will lead, as it always does in games that offer this, to elitism and lording it over the "casuals" who can't (due to lack of time, skill, effort, etc) obtain said gear.

As for the claim "Just give us a little, it's all we ask" - once they have that, it will never satisfy them... they will ask/demand more and more. History has shown in other games that have given to them... that they then start asking for more.

I remember in Guild Wars 2 for a long time raiders asked for 'hard content', raids, etc... and made the exact same claims as made by ppl in here - we just want the challenge, we just want a small bit to keep us going, we don't need best-gear, etc. They did get what they wanted eventually... ANet made in-game raids for them. What happened? Within a short time these same posters were complaining that it was not enough, that they were sad with how small the raids actually were... and demanding that more effort be made into providing even more raids, even more fights, even more content for them. They also demanded that the raids provide BiS gear that was significantly better than the current BiS Ascended gear was... as the time and effort put into raiding meant they should get the best of the best.

Sounds familiar right? It should, because if you go through this thread and look at the post's from those asking for more endgame focus and raids... you'll see all this.

Another point - about the popularity of raiding. Many people here will point to WoW as being the penultimate 'endgame raiding' game... from start to current. Funny fact is, back in WotLK days the dev's discussed the changes to raiding they'd made (moving Naxx from top-tier WoW to bottom-tier LK, LFR work, etc) - and the key point was the sheer LOW number of players who showed even an interest in raiding. They revealed that as of the end of BC only 6-7% of the player base had ever even set foot into any of the base or BC raids, only 4-5% had even cleared the 1st entry-level tier raid, and of the base raids only 1% had ever even managed to make it to Naxx... with less than 0.5% managing to clear it. The dev's who did all the work on the raids (story, art, fights, etc) were sad that so few ppl ever got to see their hard work 1st hand... this is why they moved Naxx to entry-level LK raid, why they worked on LFR, etc.

So "the raiding MMO' could not even get 10% of it's player base to even enter a raid. And this kind of low player-base who are interested in hard raids/dungeons/etc at endgame are supported by other games as well - when you look at say ESO, which has hard dungeons as a DLC... the 'veteran' (ie harder than hard version) version of the dungeons only have 3-5% clear rates on them.

Note - I stopped playing WoW just before Legion came out. The %'s of those entering raids can't be used as any reflection anymore, as the dev's have moved raiding from a purely endgame feature to something you have to do midway - 3/4 of the way through the main expansion story now. IE you used to only get LFR & normal raiding after the expansions story was done, but now you'll get to 50-75% or so mark of the expansion story and forced to do a LFR raid if you want to continue on with the base story. This shows just how desperate WoW dev's are to get #'s experiencing their raiding content... that they are now shoving it into the expansions main storyline, rather than just at the end.

And when you think of this - is there any surprise that FFXIV doesn't really change it's formulea? Works mostly on content that casual's can do, with a small amount done for hardcore savage/ultimate raiders. SE has shown it won't give YoshiP more budget so he could offer more hardcore content without effecting the vast majority of the playerbase, and YoshiP has shown he's not going to peeve off the majority just to try and please the minority... for good reason as other games have shown.

Good example - Guild Wars 2 listened to the 'hardcore' who acted like they were a huge amount... they demanded the base game was harder & more group focused. ANet listened and made the expansion Heart of Thorns harder to solo, more group focused, locked what would have previously been solo content behind a 'group only' requirement, etc just as the forum 'hardcore' players wanted.

ANet proceeded to suffer a 67% loss of revenue over the next 6 months as the majority of their paying customers left the game. This was the biggest loss that ANet has ever suffered with GW2 in a 6-month period by a huge margin. It was so bad that ANet made a public apology, said they had stuffed up... and nerfed the expansion area's heavily, changed the 'group only' stuff to stuff that could be done solo, etc all in an effort to stem the loss of players (and yes, it did stem the tide).

I'm sure YoshiP, and SE, have kept an eye on what's happening in other major MMO's and online games that they compete with for players (and yes, GW2 is a competitor to XIV)... and taken note of what works and what doesn't.

[HyoMinPark]

And this is what the truth of what is wanted - endgame raiding that only a small % of players can, and even will, do that provides them with better gear than anyone else... which will lead, as it always does in games that offer this, to elitism and lording it over the "casuals" who can't (due to lack of time, skill, effort, etc) obtain said gear.

While there are certain to be those out there who do try to “lord it over the casuals”, a lot of raiders also don’t care. I raid, and I don’t give two flying flips about what other players do in this game. I don’t care what their gear looks like—I don’t care if they have Savage BiS or not. The only time I ever speak of my own achievements is when someone is attempting to belittle me. Otherwise, I remain fairly humble. So please, don’t generalize all raiders.

As for the claim "Just give us a little, it's all we ask" - once they have that, it will never satisfy them... they will ask/demand more and more. History has shown in other games that have given to them... that they then start asking for more.

Most Ultimate raiders have only asked for a handful of things from the developers:
1. Keep making more Ultimate fights.
2. Keep the content synced/retain its challenge.
3. If they are ever unsynced in the future, remove the rewards.

And most are satisfied. I know I am. While I’d like for Savage or the Extremes to return to the glory days of Midas or Thordan Ex/Sephirot Ex, as long as there is still something challenging like Ultimate for me to have, I’m relatively content. And I stay pretty busy with content in this game, even if it’s not “endgame content” per the OP’s definition. I have multiple alts that I enjoy leveling, for example. So, again, please do not generalize all of us.

[Avraym]

You directly contradicted yourself, and now you are trying to backpedal and change your argument. What deterred people from doing Ultimate compared to Neo-Exdeath is that Ultimate is significantly harder and players cannot do it. Increased stats on the weapons would not encourage more players to try Ultimate or push to complete it. It’s difficult to the point that most actually cannot do it, and that is the entire purpose of the content.

I don’t think you actually understand the design of Ultimate. You just think it’s another avenue for big boi strong gear, but that was never its intention. Its intention was to give the hardcore raiders a challenge because they were dissatisfied with the way Savage was getting progressively easier since Midas.

I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons (or better).

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it - which is only reinforced by the statistics the dev's released.

[Kaylessa]

Erm… if I make the first post on page 100 do I get some kind of prize?

[Avraym]

Erm… if I make the first post on page 100 do I get some kind of prize?

Upvotes will be your prize.

[CorbinDallas]

I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons.

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it.

People had those weapons because they literally had cleared Savage way before ultimate and it was all they had to do before the content came out, and beyond that, why wouldn't you have the best gear possible to challenge the hardest content in the game? Better gear means an ever so slightly larger margin for error.

I would know, I dipped my toes into Ultima after I had cleared Alphascape. You know why I did that? Its because I was bored. Savage didn't satisfy me anymore, I had capped all jobs, had bis on at least one job per role, and I was considering unsubbing until 5.0.

We wiped, a lot, and disbanded after only a few weeks, largely due to the looming expansion. But we had an absolute blast in the time we had, the vanity rewards weren't ever a concern, it was about bettering ourselves and doing something that felt good.

But I guess you're gonna gloss all over this like you have with literally every other post telling you the same thing in order to further your narrative that the only reason people do content is superior gear. Fact is, people don't do ultimate, not because the gear is out of date, but simply because they're not cut out for it.

[HyoMinPark]

I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons.

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it.

The attitudes now in Ultimate are fairly positive unless you have members in a group making things particularly negative with their attitude—and not attitude caused by wipes, but by just bad personalities. Do groups get frustrated? Sure. My first UwU group had many nights of frustration when we were wiping to the primals. But I feel fairly confident in saying that most, if not every, group that clears UCoB and UwU have that victory screenshot at the end; the victory screenshot in front of Bahamut in T13 or Ultima Weapon in Ultima’s Bane; the victory nerd scream at the end of the VOD if people were streaming. Having a weapon that is essentially the same as Savage did not dull the clear for them. I didn’t give two hoots about the stats on the weapon when I cleared the first time. I just cared that I had done it.

The people that do Ultimate do it for the challenge. Not for the gear. They never did it for the gear (outside of glamour—certainly not for a BiS). And I don’t think Ultimates need some Ultimate Big Boi gear to drop from it for participation.

Gear is transient in this game. Raiders realize that. That’s why Ultimate-tier raiders don’t put stock in the weapon stats—they never did. They put the stock in the achievement of doing something that is challenging. It is enough for them.


And hey. The bragging rights from an Ultimate clear were enough for some to fork over $1200 for carries when the content first released. Too bad it becomes fairly obvious fairly quickly that their clear wasn’t earned by anyone other than their credit card.

[JowyAtreides]

One of the biggest problems is that there is very little endgame content contained outside of instanced activities which, once completed, is ignored until the following week/day.

Other MMO's offer gear progression in the ways of loot drops with better stats. I don't see FFXIV ever embracing this but I wonder if it could have been a thing in Eureka. We've had stat management before with relic gear and even base stats could be assigned back in ARR so they "could" do this and lock it into an "alternative open world". This could then be transferred into our current world upon meeting a threshold.

Ultimately, it doesn't seem to matter how much gets added, there will always be a portion of the playerbase who will burn through it all and wonder what is next. Therefore we get the repeated suggestion of "playing another game", taking a break" and essentially, having a life and not a gaming addiction. I suspect the vast vast vast majority of the player base is satisfied.

[Zabuza]

The statistics match the developers design. It wasn’t designed for 10%, 20%, or 30% clear rates. It was designed for the 1%. And the clear rates match. Ultimate is the most successful piece of content this game has ever released. Ultimate brought FFXIV into the Top 10 on Twitch. FFXIV’s visibility shot up after UCoB came out. Same with UwU. They were repeatedly streamed well past when they were first released, and that has never happened with any other piece of content. No other piece of content has the longevity Ultimate does.

This is what gets me...I've seen this to a lesser extent with Savage as well. So, casuals claim there is so little interest from other people in endgame and yet... as is said here, the twitch viewers shoot up about tenfold when Ultimate comes out. Why is that, if raiders are a vanishing minority? Why is raiding still a big thing in WoW, the MMO that, despite declining numbers from its prime, still holds the most subs? People here keep acting as if adding some raid content would somehow be detrimental, but can someone tell me where all those interested Twitch viewers come from then if there's not people wanting to participate in these raids and see more of them?