Lack of End Game Content

[Vercinotrix]

And yet all these people saying they never run out of things to do, even while playing consistently throughout the cycle. But it's okay for them to have that, but not raiders? If this was how it's meant to be played, how come a lot of casuals are able to be consistently entertained throughout the entire cycle? That's not playing the game as Yoshi intended.

You know my stance on this already, so maybe this won't come off as "ree raiders bad" but it's because they're not hyper-focused on a set type of content. Casual content in this game by your and others' definition is anything not savage or ultimate at the current patch from what I can gather.

Meanwhile, casuals have the option of all DoH, DoL, DoW, DoM classes for leveling and gearing, squadrons, leveling trusts, legacy raids, legacy EX trials, PvP farming, achievement hunting, RP, MGP farming, and probably more I'm just failing to recollect.
Casuals also seem to find joy at all levels of difficulty except the very top (and some don't dislike the content difficulty, but the culture/people that partake in it), which doesn't limit them to just a very specific niche set of content.

It's pretty easy to keep yourself entertained if you find joy outside specifically savage/ultimate bosses.

[Zabuza]

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

It's not about being "too good" for such content. I have no interest in it. It's not fun for me. You want to lose respect for me because I don't have fun doing something? Fine by me. Casuals automatically perceive that raiders think they are snubbing their noses down at them. I think that is part of where this raider hatred comes from. Fact is, I just want my fun content and don't think I'm God's gift just because I can clear raids. That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things.

You know my stance on this already, so maybe this won't come off as "ree raiders bad" but it's because they're not hyper-focused on a set type of content. Casual content in this game by your and others' definition is anything not savage or ultimate at the current patch from what I can gather.

Meanwhile, casuals have the option of all DoH, DoL, DoW, DoM classes for leveling and gearing, squadrons, leveling trusts, legacy raids, legacy EX trials, PvP farming, achievement hunting, RP, MGP farming, and probably more I'm just failing to recollect.
Casuals also seem to find joy at all levels of difficulty except the very top (and some don't dislike the content difficulty, but the culture/people that partake in it), which doesn't limit them to just a very specific niche set of content.

It's pretty easy to keep yourself entertained if you find joy outside specifically savage/ultimate bosses.

Yes, exactly. Casual crowd has all that to do, so I don't see the harm in giving raiders something. You are correct in that only savage/ultimate is generally seen as end-game by raiders because in this game right now, that is the ONLY challenging content. We are looking for any type of challenging battle content. Would not have to be Savage or Ultimate, could be something completely new. I keep hearing ridiculous things like that unsubbing over half the time is acceptable and how the game is meant to be played, or go to WoW, when in the same breath they talk about how they have more than enough content to do. That argument just does not hold up when one takes a single glance at their wealth of content. Literally NO reason not to at least step aside and let raiders have something. Even if they had to take a fraction of their resources away from casual content, so? If you guys are drowning in it, how much damage is that even going to inflict upon the casual base?

[Xieldras]

Oh look, another "Casuals kicked my dog" post.

I'm sure the devs would be more inclined to humor you and your ilk's request, if you dropped the toxic elitist attitude. Remember that all of you were casuals once, and casuals are the ones keeping the servers alive, not you.

Eh, based on what I've read from the thread since the beginning the "toxic elitist attitude" actually came from the other side, the number of thumbs up when someone dismisses raider posts is a good indicator.
It felt like a reasonable conversation until people started flexing how much content they had while ignoring the OP, who was actually kind of specific in what he meant (and which people kept ignoring). Then it devolved into insults and snide, people screaming at each other and the classic gatekeeping and ByeFelicia culture so useful to discussion and loved by forums everywhere, no matter the neutrality and calm explanations in the posts. So now we are at an impasse where a thread asking for more of a certain type of content and making suggestions about how to evolve said content has effectively been shut down.

If I may reuse the Themepark analogy. There is content everywhere, some people enjoy one type of content way more than the rest. I can't deal with rollercoasters but dangit I love me those "Win a prize-kinda-it's-rigged" games. Now in this case, FF14 is huge and has a lot of different attractions, but there are indeed more of a certain type than others. For players that enjoy rollercoasters, they may want something more thrilling and heart-stopping and that is indeed lacking in numbers. They may have tried the other attractions but they didn't like it and that's okay, you're not gonna love everything. They want more of the heart-stopper kind and they are calmly asking the park directors to make it happen.

Honestly, I want to have a feedback direct messaging that doesn't involve forums. You can't even leave a goodbye post, as cliché as it is, explaining why the game is no longer fun to you without major snark. This type of feedback is priceless to artists and Devs (granted it should favorably be precise and not insulting the Devs themselves is a good starting point).

Hilariously, you throw around the word toxic while throwing shade and somewhat insulting a part of the community while flexing about your dominance (albeit it's true that casuals are the majority, no one likes a show-off). If that ain't toxic then I should read the dictionary again.

[Vercinotrix]

Yes, exactly. Casual crowd has all that to do, so I don't see the harm in giving raiders something. You are correct in that only savage/ultimate is generally seen as end-game by raiders because in this game right now, that is the ONLY challenging content. We are looking for any type of challenging battle content. Would not have to be Savage or Ultimate, could be something completely new. I keep hearing ridiculous things like that unsubbing over half the time is acceptable and how the game is meant to be played, or go to WoW, when in the same breath they talk about how they have more than enough content to do. That argument just does not hold up when one takes a single glance at their wealth of content. Literally NO reason not to at least step aside and let raiders have something. Even if they had to take a fraction of their resources away from casual content, so? If you guys are drowning in it, how much damage is that even going to inflict upon the casual base?

I've said it before, but there's probably a myriad of reasons as to why.

However one thing that I can say is, the statement "There's literally no reason to step aside and let raiders have something" is false. Not agreeing with their reasons or logic isn't the same thing as it not existing. And people aren't going to willingly eat the loss of their content for yours, asking them to do so just won't happen. It would have to be a conscious and deliberate thing on SE's end. Can there be more high-end content? Sure, and perhaps there should be. However asking people to give up their content for people they perceive hate them isn't going to happen.

And "That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things." is not entirely true either. Like any group, raiders have their darkside as well. There are "hardcore" players that do treat those not apart of their group as beneath them. Even if the ratio of good and bad is heavily in the favor of good, the ones who are bad are going to more prevalent in the minds of those they affected. Just go to any community that has both a hardcore crowd and a casual crowd, and you will always see animosity going both directions.

[Zabuza]

Eh, based on what I've read from the thread since the beginning the "toxic elitist attitude" actually came from the other side, the number of thumbs up when someone dismisses raider posts is a good indicator.
It felt like a reasonable conversation until people started flexing how much content they had while ignoring the OP, who was actually kind of specific in what he meant (and which people kept ignoring). Then it devolved into insults and snide, people screaming at each other and the classic gatekeeping and ByeFelicia culture so useful to discussion and loved by forums everywhere, no matter the neutrality and calm explanations in the posts. So now we are at an impasse where a thread asking for more of a certain type of content and making suggestions about how to evolve said content has effectively been shut down.

If I may reuse the Themepark analogy. There is content everywhere, some people enjoy one type of content way more than the rest. I can't deal with rollercoasters but dangit I love me those "Win a prize-kinda-it's-rigged" games. Now in this case, FF14 is huge and has a lot of different attractions, but there are indeed more of a certain type than others. For players that enjoy rollercoasters, they may want something more thrilling and heart-stopping and that is indeed lacking in numbers. They may have tried the other attractions but they didn't like it and that's okay, you're not gonna love everything. They want more of the heart-stopper kind and they are calmly asking the park directors to make it happen.

Honestly, I want to have a feedback direct messaging that doesn't involve forums. You can't even leave a goodbye post, as cliché as it is, explaining why the game is no longer fun to you without major snark. This type of feedback is priceless to artists and Devs (granted it should favorably be precise and not insulting the Devs themselves is a good starting point).

Hilariously, you throw around the word toxic while throwing shade and somewhat insulting a part of the community while flexing about your dominance (albeit it's true that casuals are the majority, no one likes a show-off). If that ain't toxic then I should read the dictionary again.

Thank you for bringing a more neutral, level-headed perspective to this. I wish more people thought like you and were willing to accept that it is okay for raiders to want something they enjoy doing in this game. That's all I want. That, and for the devs to read this and consider the pleas of raiders in this thread.

I've said it before, but there's probably a myriad of reasons as to why.

However one thing that I can say is, the statement "There's literally no reason to step aside and let raiders have something" is false. Not agreeing with their reasons or logic isn't the same thing as it not existing. And people aren't going to willingly eat the loss of their content for yours, asking them to do so just won't happen. It would have to be a conscious and deliberate thing on SE's end. Can there be more high-end content? Sure, and perhaps there should be. However asking people to give up their content for people they perceive hate them isn't going to happen.

And "That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things." is not entirely true either. Like any group, raiders have their darkside as well. There are "hardcore" players that do treat those not apart of their group as beneath them. Even if the ratio of good and bad is heavily in the favor of good, the ones who are bad are going to more prevalent in the minds of those they affected. Just go to any community that has both a hardcore crowd and a casual crowd, and you will always see animosity going both directions.

If they have a surplus of content like they keep saying, then they'll still have content to eat up if a little is taken away, right? As to your second point, yes, you're correct. Though I haven't really seen any raiders in this thread implying that casuals are beneath them.

[Vercinotrix]

If they have a surplus of content like they keep saying, then they'll still have content to eat up if a little is taken away, right? As to your second point, yes, you're correct. Though I haven't really seen any raiders in this thread implying that casuals are beneath them.

They more than likely will still have a surplus due to the nature of EX and savage becoming retired content.

And there's been a few here and there that come in and either out of frustration or whatnot, make themselves into the ideal bad guy. Not specifically this thread either, but you can find the casual and hardcore crowd cracking heads throughout the forums. People are more than likely going to latch onto that caricature or stereotype and apply it to all that are against them. The reverse is also true, it seems casuals are the boogeyman in the closet for some raiders.

Jokes aside I know how the raiders feel deep down, and while I may not like where PvE culture has gone in the last decade and can't be bothered to deal with it anymore, I wish more content could be added to the game as a whole without anyone perceiving it taking away from them. I don't think the developer interviews where they constantly fall back to that line of reasoning as to why they don't add certain things helps either, it's the main argument as to why things shouldn't be added instead of the community rallying for SE to give XIV's development team more resources and quality staff.

Anyway, I finally have people on to do stuff with. I'll check back for a reply later or something, but if I get busy and forget I hope you don't let this thread get to ya too hard.

[Catwho]

If we want to use the themepark analogy further: Roller coasters may be the flagship rides of a theme park, but they are also the most expensive rides for the park to produce. For every giant coaster, there are usually a half dozen smaller thrill rides that cost considerably less for the park to build. (The lines also tend to be shorter.... although that is where the analogy breaks.) So when the park makes the decision to add a new coaster, it becomes a multi-million dollar project. Whereas adding in another kiddie ride is something they can do in a few months.

I think that may be one reason why endgame raiding content feels thin at patch launch - high end battle content is some of the most resource intensive stuff for them to produce, so creating an entirely new kind of content (beyond the cycle of Ex fights, 8-man raids, and 24-man raids) is something they're going to have to spend much more time on than they may be willing to invest. (Note that one reason XI's endgame content felt so much more wide and varied compared to XIV is because the level cap stayed at 75 through four expansions, so almost all gear added was sidegrades. Yes, the content was still at level, as was the gear, but that's partly because the game was stagnant for six years in terms of progression.)

[Xieldras]

Very fair and completely agree. In the end it's about effort vs revenue.

I do believe engaging endgame raiding to be important because it feels like horizontal progression on the main piece of content. I'm personally from the mindset that quality > quantity, especially in the replayability value department.
I also see XI mentioned a lot, but I'm afraid I do not have any experience with it to know how it properly compares.

[Nixxe]

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

I mean, there's also the fact that as casuals they probably just play less. It's a lot harder to burn through all the content in the game on 3 hours a week compared to 20 hours a week.

[linay]

I do believe engaging endgame raiding to be important because it feels like progression on the main piece of content.

To be fair, "progression on the main piece of content" in this game will always be the MSQ, even at level cap. Unlike in some other games, like WoW, where the main quest can take you to the raid if you follow it through (though it's still optional), raiding is indeed treated more as a side piece of content in this game, along with its own side quest. There's even a thread right now asking why Eden is not part of the MSQ. Even in terms of gears, tomestone gears can have the same item level as Savage (aside from weapon), and some pieces may even be BiS.