Lack of End Game Content

[Kaylessa]

This is the first time since ARR ive been around during one of the xpac starts but has this ever been so heavily discussed before or were people content with how its been.

2018 thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_feels_empty/

2013 thread - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ame-content%21

FFXIV has never been strong at endgame, it's just never been one of its strengths

[Kaylessa]

To be honest, I really like splitting my time between 3 MMOs - WoW, FFXIV, and ESO. I feel like they all provide something different and together they give me all I want in an MMO. I feel like I can live in FFXIV and ESO (not WoW), I feel like WoW gives me good endgame content and an in depth loot system (even if it's too RNG focused), ESO gives me the best questing experience and it's quite a social game as well (people talk and group up more there), and I feel FFXIV gives me good engaging stories and characters, really fun progression dungeons and raids, and a really engaging crafting and gathering system (which ESO also does to a lesser degree … not WoW).

It's reasonable to start a discussion about whether FFXIV should have more endgame content, but I think FFXIV will consolidate on their strengths first with maybe a sprinkling of endgame. I feel as though focusing on the golden saucer or crafters would be more in theme with the type of game they're trying to create. They seem to want to promote community driven content also so they may decide to put their efforts towards that.

But I'm happy with spreading my attention over three games so I'm not upset about the lack of this kind of content in any way. In fact I really like starting new characters in FFXIV, I feel no rush reaching the end in that game. The leveling process is really nice and relaxing.

[Driavna]

So.. "look, now that you can faceroll this content it's all yours and it counts as us doing something for you!" Sounds.. a little unappealing.

You mean like normal mode, dungeons, 24m, normal primals or any quest/solo duty from the msq? Or like levelling all classes to max level or complete most of the achievement that are like: do this X amount of times? Or like those quest you can't even give the wrong answer and suffer a little prank from a faery?

As I said you don't need to change the formula, add more to it.

But I guess everything is reduced to: I don't want anything added to the game that I don't want to do even if does not impact me in any negative way at all because of reasons. However, I going to tell others to do stuff they don't want to do.

[Krotoan]

You mean like normal mode, dugeons, 24m, normal extreme primals or any quest/solo duty from the msq?.

As I said you don't need to change the formula, add more to it.

But I guess everything is reduce to: I don't want anything added to the game that I don't want to do even if does not impact in any negative way at all.

We've already established that it has a downside, even if it's small it's a downside. Normal mode is what we first get already, dungeons are released in "story" difficulties first, I don't know what a "normal" extreme primal is, and wouldn't quest and solo duties be normal mode?

You can't just add more to it without changing budget though, which is the problem. If there were no problems with just growing the content without shuffling resources then yeah, why wouldn't we be ok with this? But they've shown time and time again that for something to be done, other things must suffer. Should that change? ... would be nice, but it hasn't for 6 years, it's kinda foolish to think that SE is going to change positions on what has been shown to be a profitable and consistent flow especially now that they're showing strain just getting an expansion out to the same standards they've always had.

Please don't confuse this with my personal stance ( I like a reasonably challenging bit of content every once in a while and also go back and consume stuff once it's been toned down a bit) , I'm just trying to reason out why anyone would ever want or support something that detracted from their own personal priority and enjoyment. It just makes sense that the large, casual playerbase FFXIV has wouldn't support shifting ANY resources to increasing bleeding edge extreme content. Why would they?

[Driavna]

Was a typo and you knew it but it's not like it matters. Also, SB gained more than it lost with the only non-casual friendly content being Ultimate.

[Krotoan]

Was a typo and you knew it but is not like it matters.

.. little aggressive there. I was honestly confused so that's why I said something. If you want I'll go back and edit my message?

[Hawklaser]

Again you're not asking for a better for the game, you're trying to redesign it into something its not and not trying to be, not because it would make the game better, but because it would make it better for you.

Seeing as your argument is those with more should sacrifice for those with less, even when it makes little to no sense, the PVP guys have less than you, if the only person who could design more PVP content was also the lead designer on raids, as you've 5% to their 2% wouldn't you mind losing something for them? After all you've got more than them, isn't that loss worth letting them find a home here too?

Lets see, on the design front. RPGs as a general rule of thumb trend toward big epic adventures. Accomplished by the use of the story narative and challenge. FFXIV does a great job on the narative side, but has been floundering on the challenge side. ARR near launch had a better overall balance to this. So we're trying to not better the game by pointing out the adventures don't feel as epic as they used to, by asking for some of the challenge that made them feel epic to be added back in? To me nothing of late has had the feel of challenge one would expect of a final or post game dungeon in a traditional RPG. While I didn't get to experience Coil in its glory days, I was working towards it, its also a bit funny that they won't make more stuff like Castrum Meridium and Praetoreum as those actually felt like final dungeons when done in the ilvl 55-65 gear had at the time. The only reason they got so much hate at the time was those running them for the umpteenth time for tomestones didn't want to wait for people doing the story to enjoy the story. That was it. Nothing about difficulty or length, just story vs tomestone grind. Would be a bit silly if thats one of the big culprits as to why we don't have much for challenging content now wouldn't it? As I really enjoyed Praetoreum back in ARR, probably still would if power creep hadn't trivialized it to just a mini movie.

On the would I give up the part of 5% slice of raiding content so pvpers with their 2% slice could get better and more frequent patches? Yes. Would probably try and see if combined resources would work best first and do like a 7% raid, raid, pvp cycles, but if the only solution is closer to a 50/50 split so be it.

[BlitzAceRush]

Snip.

Casuals didn't change the game, this game has been pretty much running the same cycle with while trying something new here and there since ARR, has it been made easier? Yes, in some aspects Coil was basically at savage difficulty with no normal mode, and some instances here and there have been nerffed as time went on, however lets not pretend you've had a larger slice of this pie, in fact raiders have gained some more content like Ultimate and BA as time has gone on.
You also avoided the point of my question, you're whole argument which you said again is Casuals have more, raiders have less, give us some of your stuff, it won't hurt you as much as it would benefit us. That is the exact situation I gave you, PVP'ers have less, you have more, given staff with the right talents are sighted by Yoshi as a reason they can't do everything, only the person who dose raids could give to the PVP'er, so won't you benefit them more than you'll be hurt? You'll still have more than them, they'll just get a little more to enjoy.

Snip.

Eh, this is more subjective I don't feel something needs to be hard to feel like an epic adventure I've found Shadowbringers and the post dungeons very epic and there no more difficult than any that came before, the story and setting are what make that for me. As for floundering, you can argue it's lacking in difficulty but it's not hurt for it. Most people just enjoy moving through the story, seeing the sights and taking in the atmosphere.
As for why they won't make another Castrum Meridium and Praetoreum, its because they were a design mess, MMO's expect you to run their content over and over and those were perfect for a single player game, terrible for an MMO and I disagree with the challenge part, people cheeses and breezed through them even back then it took more work and the mobs didn't melt instantly like they do today but it was no more challenging then than now just longer, they've always been cut scenes masquerading as dungeons save for the trials at the end of Praetoreum and the first phase of Castrum Meridium, those did give some people some trouble.

That's very noble that you would and honestly I wouldn't be against raiders getting more myself, my point is over the 6 years they have been given more, Ultimate and BA wouldn't be here otherwise and Yoshi has been clear like in the mythic+ question with the staff he can get his hands on, with the resources he has and trying to keep to the scheduled they work on he has to prioritises and he's going to do it based on numbers, so few were clearing the raids they lowered their difficulty but then came Ultimate to composite for those who really wanna push it. BA was a success and sits somewhere in the middle and they'd like to do something with that. Challenging content dose get made as dose content with PVP but it's made to reflect the numbers.

[Zabuza]

Casuals didn't change the game, this game has been pretty much running the same cycle with while trying something new here and there since ARR, has it been made easier? Yes, in some aspects Coil was basically at savage difficulty with no normal mode, and some instances here and there have been nerffed as time went on, however lets not pretend you've had a larger slice of this pie, in fact raiders have gained some more content like Ultimate and BA as time has gone on.
You also avoided the point of my question, you're whole argument which you said again is Casuals have more, raiders have less, give us some of your stuff, it won't hurt you as much as it would benefit us. That is the exact situation I gave you, PVP'ers have less, you have more, given staff with the right talents are sighted by Yoshi as a reason they can't do everything, only the person who dose raids could give to the PVP'er, so won't you benefit them more than you'll be hurt? You'll still have more than them, they'll just get a little more to enjoy.

I did not avoid your question. I answered it directly by saying if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken. And yes, they did change the game. Dungeons used to be more difficult. Normal level raids did not used to exist. MSQ fights used to be more difficult. Tanks used to have to actually worry about threat management, and certain DPS had to actually worry about managing their TP. Please tell me more about how casuals didn't change this game and gradually take away the challenging factors.

[Lunavi]

I did not avoid your question. I answered it directly by saying if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken. And yes, they did change the game. Dungeons used to be more difficult. Normal level raids did not used to exist. MSQ fights used to be more difficult. Tanks used to have to actually worry about threat management, and certain DPS had to actually worry about managing their TP. Please tell me more about how casuals didn't change this game and gradually take away the challenging factors.

The problem if having high-end raiding as a main focus for content and having it have a lot of content is that it by its very nature is excluding. Everyone can participate in a round of triple triad or get a nice apartment and start furnishing it, but only the top players can engage in high end content, and this is a problem if a lot of the game focused on it as it would literally exclude people from a lion's share of the content. The goal for a sub based MMO is to have as many active subscriptions as possible, this is not done by closing the doors at 98% of the potential customers. I know, I also hate the TP change, but I can understand where they are coming from in having very little focus on high end content.