Lack of End Game Content

[IntrovertAnt]

I know that it's been said that Yoshi P says that they don't make content with the purpose of trying to keep players playing every waking minute of every day or every month. They are cool with people taking a break from the game to go play other things and then coming back when there is more content.

To be honest I love that philosophy from both a player standpoint and a game developer standpoint.

[OcieKo]

When comparing the Hardcore Raiding Crowd with the Casual Do Everything Crowd, there's one important distinction to be made. HC Raiding crowd tends to be more okay with cutting other content for theirs. You don't really see a lot of posts about cutting out production of Savage and Ultimate to make a new Gold Saucer attraction. As far as we know, the casual content of Expert Dungeons per patch was the cost of most of the casual/experimental content.

Also in terms of manpower, it was mentioned that Ultimates are only doable by about 3 members of the team. Not to say only 3 members are involved in the whole thing, but actually designing the encounter to be on that level is about 3 people. Sure art assets, animations, sound effects, etc are handled by way more, but their team itself lacks top 1%ers.

And much of the argument here seems to be, "I choose to not engage in a lot of content in order for me to say there is no content" vs. "There is a ton of content I can do whether I choose to engage in it or not". If one CHOOSES to play ONLY Paladin on Cutting Edge content... your gaming lifespan in almost any MMO is 2 months. If there is no loot lockout about 2 weeks. Considering FFXIV has easily the fastest content release cycle for the scope of content delivered. If you can find another MMO that releases 10 Raids every 6 Months then I'm sure the HC crowd would love it. (4 Normal 8, 4 Savage 8, 1 24 man, 1 Ultimate Is supposed to be all out every other patch. And this doesn't even include Extreme Trials which would add at least another 2 pieces of high end content per 6 months)

However, the name endgame content in itself SUGGESTS content you do specifically at the end of the game, hence END GAME content. It's really very simple.

Do yourself a favour. Actually write down the list of content that we have. Then, attribute what level you can complete said content and what rewards you'll receive for your efforts.

You'll find very quickly, that the amount specifically intended for max level is almost non existent.

Ultimates for example - offer no reward outside transmorg and achievement. Hell they can't be done with most of our rotation due to the level sync requirement.

The current content that we DO have, Eden Normal, 80 Dungeons, Ex Primals, Gathering/Crafting difficult recipes are met with praise.

But it's incredibly limited. In NO other MMORPG's expansion that I've played, have I be been able to beat the story, reach max level and acquire the best in slot gear for MULTIPLE jobs, in less than two weeks.

There is a lot to do in this game, but there's just very very limited amounts of content that is both challenging and rewarding to do at max level.

Why is it so absurd, that reaching your characters full power potential in such a short amount of time is a problem?
Why is it so absurd, that perhaps after the 3rd expansion, that still getting the same formulaic content has grown lacking?
Why is it so absurd, that there is so much for casual players to do, but so little for raiders.

We enjoy the content we get, but we shouldn't be condemned for pointing out how little raid content there is despite the growing player base and increase in raiders.

You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.

How is someone possibly completed with Endgame if they can still aren't at that point with everything? The argument that I'm seeing is generally being made by the hardcore crowd is, I only want to do a small amount of endgame content, so give me more that my tiny piece of the endgame pie can do. If you can still level, you are not at endgame. Its true in every MMO, only difference is, your character has a lot more leveling to do here than everywhere else. There's only a few other games that a character isn't one and done like this one.

Thinking of level cap as 80 and not 2,000 is the mistake. (80 X 25 = 200)

[Zabuza]

When comparing the Hardcore Raiding Crowd with the Casual Do Everything Crowd, there's one important distinction to be made. HC Raiding crowd tends to be more okay with cutting other content for theirs. You don't really see a lot of posts about cutting out production of Savage and Ultimate to make a new Gold Saucer attraction. As far as we know, the casual content of Expert Dungeons per patch was the cost of most of the casual/experimental content.

Also in terms of manpower, it was mentioned that Ultimates are only doable by about 3 members of the team. Not to say only 3 members are involved in the whole thing, but actually designing the encounter to be on that level is about 3 people. Sure art assets, animations, sound effects, etc are handled by way more, but their team itself lacks top 1%ers.

And much of the argument here seems to be, "I choose to not engage in a lot of content in order for me to say there is no content" vs. "There is a ton of content I can do whether I choose to engage in it or not". If one CHOOSES to play ONLY Paladin on Cutting Edge content... your gaming lifespan in almost any MMO is 2 months. If there is no loot lockout about 2 weeks. Considering FFXIV has easily the fastest content release cycle for the scope of content delivered. If you can find another MMO that releases 10 Raids every 6 Months then I'm sure the HC crowd would love it. (4 Normal 8, 4 Savage 8, 1 24 man, 1 Ultimate Is supposed to be all out every other patch. And this doesn't even include Extreme Trials which would add at least another 2 pieces of high end content per 6 months)



You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

Wow, this is extremely dishonest. You left out the context being that the casual crowd has repeatedly said that they have more content than they know what to do with. It's seriously like a 90% ratio of casual content to do in this game vs 10% being savage/ultimate, and that is being generous. Probably more like 95/5%. No duh that the raiding crowd is more okay with cutting casual content to receive some hardcore content, since it is heavily, heavily skewed in favor of casuals. Also no, casuals have not asked to cut savage/ultimate, they've only asked to make savage easier, which the devs have done, which is actually in a way cutting content since savage gets finished much quicker. They haven't asked specifically to cut savage/ultimate, they have just said 'no, we don't want raiders having any more content even though we already have 95% of the pie.' Stop being disingenuous, please.

You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

I'll just rebut this quote with another quote posted right under.

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you finish your sightseeing logs?"
"I want more endgame content."
'Ok, but did you stock your entire Glamour dresser with clothes that look exactly the same every patch?
You get all mounts that you never use? You max gil? You flirted with everyone in Ul'dah?"
I mean damn guys lol.

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.

[Mikhaill]

If you can still level, you are not at endgame. Its true in every MMO, only difference is, your character has a lot more leveling to do here than everywhere else. There's only a few other games that a character isn't one and done like this one.

Thinking of level cap as 80 and not 2,000 is the mistake. (80 X 25 = 200)

Um, no. No ones gonna force themselves to play jobs they don't wanna play and
even if they do, you're still left with nothing at the end.
People who keep saying "play slower and not rush" well I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and smell the pixelated roses for 30 years sorry lmao.

The problem is that endgame is just that....the end for you because there's nothing else to feed you.
The climb to it is the most fun really. I'm taking my time but like I said, you can only go so slow...

[Avraym]

You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

I'll echo the sentiments of others. How is levelling a second job conducive to playing my main class of job?

Hint, its not. It used to, when we shared cross class abilities, but that's long since changed.

I've already maxed 3 jobs, on my way to 5, but levelling one battle class and forcing myself to level a job I don't intend to play doesn't enhance or effect the player style of an other, though i appreciate the suggestion.

[Nixxe]

How is someone possibly completed with Endgame if they can still aren't at that point with everything?

I feel like you don't understand what endgame content is.

[OcieKo]

I feel like you don't understand what endgame content is.

Everything only doable at level cap... of which there is 25 level caps per character. 26 if you include Blue Mage... of which I'm not, but there is a whole chunk of Endgame BLU content that requires it to be 50.
Yet a lot of the sentiment here... "I'm only playing 4% of my character, but the amount of content for 4% of a character is too little, make more content of 4% of my character and sacrifice part of the other 96% of all characters content to do it."

As of the current the only content based things that we're reduced or moved to other content was, the casual expert dungeon count dropping by one, to make experimental content, which should have things like diadem, eureka, and Baldesion Arsenal in there (tho I believe some of the resources for Ultimate 3 were moved to BA as well, but Ultimate 3 was dropped for a different reason, next sentence). And last cycles Ultimate count dropping by one due to them being of the understanding that players felt burnt out of the first one, and by the time of the 2nd they got the hang of it, but the content for the 3rd was already pulled from the production plan.

Want 4 or 5 Raid tiers an expansion, sacrifice your Ultimates for it, might be possible. I think it's a dumb idea, even if I don't partake of either content when it's current. Even if it would technically result in more over-all content, still think you're better off with the ultimates.

Wow, this is extremely dishonest. You left out the context being that the casual crowd has repeatedly said that they have more content than they know what to do with. It's seriously like a 90% ratio of casual content to do in this game vs 10% being savage/ultimate, and that is being generous. Probably more like 95/5%. No duh that the raiding crowd is more okay with cutting casual content to receive some hardcore content, since it is heavily, heavily skewed in favor of casuals. Also no, casuals have not asked to cut savage/ultimate, they've only asked to make savage easier, which the devs have done, which is actually in a way cutting content since savage gets finished much quicker. They haven't asked specifically to cut savage/ultimate, they have just said 'no, we don't want raiders having any more content even though we already have 95% of the pie.' Stop being disingenuous, please.

Easiest way to cut out casual content would be to get the game down to 4 jobs tho, make balancing a lot easier... You can have a 2 Tank, 2 Healer, 4 DPS. Pick which of the 4 tanks stays (PLD most likely), which of the 3 healers (WHM most likely), which of the DPS (BLM or DRG or more likely both)... bam thousands of man hours and dollars pulled out of casual content that can be put into HC content, just every group has to play the exact same things.

Also there's plenty of casuals that don't play everything, and many accept that as their choice to not partake and they lose content due to THEIR OWN CHOICE. I accept that it is my choice that I don't do Extreme/Savage/Ultimate fights, them being cut for things I actually do is still wrong in my opinion. I think the PVP in this game is pretty bad, so I didn't do this piece of essentially endgame content, thus I never got any of the PVP seasonal rewards, doesn't mean I think it should be cut (do think PvP needs to seriously hire a person from elsewhere tho).

I have yet to figure out why they make content easier ever since Steps of Faith MSQ to get into HW... it was doable at launch... now its roflstomp of boredom and people still can't do it at it right.
It's been known for a long time that bleeding edge raiding can't support an MMO. It's why most MMOs only have a bit of it every expansion. Wouldn't be surprised if casual content was cut to make Ultimates, but alas nothing on that matter has been said explicitly so, that's speculation.

Even then, the pacing is nearly twice as fast here. To get HC or any content for that matter at a pace of the people who burned through all of their desired SHB content in 2 weeks, the man-hours and financial costs would probably require our subs to go up by a significant margin.

Heck without the loot lockout in place, for these types of content devourers, starting the expansion at the last patch before the new one would probably put em into a content drought a month out from the new expansion.

[Nixxe]

Everything only doable at level cap... of which there is 25 level caps per character. 26 if you include Blue Mage... of which I'm not, but there is a whole chunk of Endgame BLU content that requires it to be 50.
Yet a lot of the sentiment here... "I'm only playing 4% of my character, but the amount of content for 4% of a character is too little, make more content of 4% of my character and sacrifice part of the other 96% of that characters content to do it."

As of the current the only content based things that we're reduced or moved to other content was, the casual expert dungeon count dropping by one, to make experimental content. And last cycles Ultimate count dropping by one due to them being of the understanding that players felt burnt out of the first one, and by the time of the 2nd they got the hang of it, but the content for the 3rd was already pulled from the production plan.

Want 4 or 5 Raid tiers an expansion, sacrifice your Ultimates for it, might be possible. I think it's a dumb idea, even if I don't partake of either content when it's current.

4% is roughly the amount of extra endgame content you'll unlock by leveling every job to cap. The overwhelming bulk of it is accessible from whatever battle job you get to cap first, as it's accessed via the MSQ or a prominent side quest, both of which just require you be some sort of DoW/M. All you're going to get by getting every other job to cap is a handful of 5 min job quests and the Masked Carnival, which many people probably finished during Stormblood. Even if they haven't, the notion that people should need to exhaust literally all content available before expressing any sort of dissatisfaction with the amount or variety available is exceedingly unreasonable.

Besides, this isn't just about raids. I don't even do progression raiding and I constantly run out of things to do that are relevant to my jobs as level 80s. I have to settle for going back and cleaning up old content I missed during ARR (and that's a very shallow well I've almost dried up) or doing endlessly repeatable activities, like gil making. I unsub for around half of each expansion and haven't actually missed out on anything because of it.

[Zabuza]

Even then, the pacing is nearly twice as fast here. To get HC or any content for that matter at a pace of the people who burned through all of their desired SHB content in 2 weeks, the man-hours and financial costs would probably require our subs to go up by a significant margin.

If I knew more HC content was in the pipeline beyond the normal formula that we have gotten, I would not be making my posts with such fervor. Alas, I can already see the same formula has already been set in place again with the way they set up the expert dungeons, tomes, and extremes. This is the same precursor to 4 savage trials that we have always been given. The same exact meal that we have been fed for 6 years, and it is not only stale, but does not satisfy the hunger for very long.

[Mikhaill]

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you finish your sightseeing logs?"
"I want more endgame content."
'Ok, but did you stock your entire Glamour dresser with clothes that look exactly the same every patch?
You get all mounts that you never use? You max gil? You flirted with everyone in Ul'dah?"
I mean damn guys lol.

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.