Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[TouchandFeel]

Even with having Delerium and/or Blood Weapon contribute to Darkside upkeep, it still leaves TBN->Dark Arts as the primary method of upkeep which is inherently problematic.
Buffs and their application need to be proactive and not reactive so that they stay squarely within the control of the player and are not at the whim of the content. TBN, and therefore Dark Arts, are reactive.
It's really best to just avoid tying Darkside's upkeep to Dark Arts.

If you want to make Darkside upkeep more interactive there are a myriad of other ways to do that which are based around proactive abilities, for example just off the top of my head ...
Edge/Shadow only add 10s to Darkside's time and now Blood Weapon adds 10s to Darkside's time per Weaponskill or Spell. Now Edge and Flood are more about keeping Darkside's time from draining too much until the next Blood Weapon where you can really fill it back up, plus some extra wiggle room for fight mechanics/downtime.
Not saying this is what should be done, just an example.

[DemonicNeko]

Even with having Delerium and/or Blood Weapon contribute to Darkside upkeep, it still leaves TBN->Dark Arts as the primary method of upkeep which is inherently problematic.
Buffs and their application need to be proactive and not reactive so that they stay squarely within the control of the player and are not at the whim of the content. TBN, and therefore Dark Arts, are reactive.
It's really best to just avoid tying Darkside's upkeep to Dark Arts.

If you want to make Darkside upkeep more interactive there are a myriad of other ways to do that which are based around proactive abilities, for example just off the top of my head ...
Edge/Shadow only add 10s to Darkside's time and now Blood Weapon adds 10s to Darkside's time per Weaponskill or Spell. Now Edge and Flood are more about keeping Darkside's time from draining too much until the next Blood Weapon where you can really fill it back up, plus some extra wiggle room for fight mechanics/downtime.
Not saying this is what should be done, just an example.

That sounds like a terrible system.
1. Where will I get the mana to use TBN?
2. This does not solve the biggest problem with the DRK. The fact it has no good game play. You just turned it already boring gameplay into a worse one. Plus we are already at the bottom of the tank dps list. Making it so we can not even use Darkside in a boss fight. You might as well removing DRK from tanking in this expansion.

I know this picture is a meme but this pretty much sums up DRK as a hole.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_CU03BW...g&name=900x900

At this point I am feeling they should go back to HW DRK. At less that one had interesting game play. Unlike right now where we focus on Souleater to build blood points. To use Bloodspiller. Which that all we do when our burst is on cooldown.

SB the started to make DRK into a Warrior Clone. Now in HW they have fully made us a Warrior clone. If I wanted to play Warrior. I would play Warrior and not Dark Knight. Paladin is not much better. Feels like it on it way of being a Warrior clone with spells.

[TouchandFeel]

snip.

I don't think you understood what I was actually speaking to in the post you quoted and instead just read it and jumped to a conclusion. Maybe you should read the posts preceding the one you quoted, not to mention that I explicitly stated in that post and the previous one that tying Darkside to TBN is a bad idea. If you are referring to my off the cuff idea about Blood Weapon adding time to Darkside, I at no point stated it would lose any current functionality like it providing MP and Blood.

So really there appears to be a bit of a disconnect between my posts and your response.

And yeah we all get it, you hate the new DRK and hate the new Delerium but that has nothing to do with my post.

[DemonicNeko]

I don't think you understood what I was actually speaking to in the post you quoted and instead just read it and jumped to a conclusion. Maybe you should read the posts preceding the one you quoted, not to mention that I explicitly stated in that post and the previous one that tying Darkside to TBN is a bad idea. If you are referring to my off the cuff idea about Blood Weapon adding time to Darkside, I at no point stated it would lose any current functionality like it providing MP and Blood.

So really there appears to be a bit of a disconnect between my posts and your response.

And yeah we all get it, you hate the new DRK and hate the new Delerium but that has nothing to do with my post.

Sorry I did miss understand it. Though I still think the class needs a full on rework like MCN. No amount of tweaking to Delerium and/or Blood Weapon will save this class. Nothing short of a total rebuilding from the ground up will fix this class. Shame the Devs do not play tanks or at less anything but Warrior. Paladin does not need to be a spell casting Warrior Clone. Dark Knight does not need to be an edge Warrior Clone. Gunbreaker most likely will get a Warrior clone with guns remake in 6.0. Cause everyone need a freak Inner Release and Fell Cleave.

[RadicalPesto]

Sorry I did miss understand it. Though I still think the class needs a full on rework like MCN. No amount of tweaking to Delerium and/or Blood Weapon will save this class. Nothing short of a total rebuilding from the ground up will fix this class. Shame the Devs do not play tanks or at less anything but Warrior. Paladin does not need to be a spell casting Warrior Clone. Dark Knight does not need to be an edge Warrior Clone. Gunbreaker most likely will get a Warrior clone with guns remake in 6.0. Cause everyone need a freak Inner Release and Fell Cleave.

Paladin doesn't play at all like Warrior outside the 5 gcd spam window... Which was originally a Paladin mechanic to begin with. Its difficult for Paladin to have been designed as a "Warrior clone" when its Warrior that was redesigned to have Inner Release function similarly to Requiescat. Outside of this window (which only barely counts as a burst phase for Paladin, yet is the most important part of Warrior's rotation) these classes have an entirely different combo flow, with Paladin being much closer to a rotational class like Gunbreaker and having no actual resource management.

[DemonicNeko]

Paladin doesn't play at all like Warrior outside the 5 gcd spam window... Which was originally a Paladin mechanic to begin with. Its difficult for Paladin to have been designed as a "Warrior clone" when its Warrior that was redesigned to have Inner Release function similarly to Requiescat. Outside of this window (which only barely counts as a burst phase for Paladin, yet is the most important part of Warrior's rotation) these classes have an entirely different combo flow, with Paladin being much closer to a rotational class like Gunbreaker and having no actual resource management.

While yes they fill up their beast gage though auto attacks and not finishing their 123 combo. They still have a 123 combo. They still have a beast gauge. They still have an inner release. Sure you can argue that the beast gauge is only use on defensive cooldowns and not offensive ones like Warrior and DRK.

The point I am trying to make is. Tanks only do is hit 123 123 123. Build up some type of resource and spend it. Paladin being the more unique aspect of this. As they build their resource though auto attacks and spend it on defensive abilities and not offensive like the other three. Guessing Warrior clone was not the right words for it. Yet it hard not to want to say it. As they gave both DRK and PLD beast gauge, inner release and Fell Cleave. Guessing my problem is. WAR, DRK and PLD please almost exactly the same. With very little little in between the 3 tanks.

As much as people might not want to admit it. We are just a 123 spamming. Waiting to spend our beast gauge and waiting for our cooldowns to come up. GNB is not much better. As you pretty much just build up shells and spend them. Waiting for your big cooldowns to come up as well. Tanking in this expansion is bad.

[RadicalPesto]

While yes they fill up their beast gage though auto attacks and not finishing their 123 combo. They still have a 123 combo. They still have a beast gauge. They still have an inner release. Sure you can argue that the beast gauge is only use on defensive cooldowns and not offensive ones like Warrior and DRK.

The point I am trying to make is. Tanks only do is hit 123 123 123. Build up some type of resource and spend it. Paladin being the more unique aspect of this. As they build their resource though auto attacks and spend it on defensive abilities and not offensive like the other three. Guessing Warrior clone was not the right words for it. Yet it hard not to want to say it. As they gave both DRK and PLD beast gauge, inner release and Fell Cleave. Guessing my problem is. WAR, DRK and PLD please almost exactly the same. With very little little in between the 3 tanks.

As much as people might not want to admit it. We are just a 123 spamming. Waiting to spend our beast gauge and waiting for our cooldowns to come up. GNB is not much better. As you pretty much just build up shells and spend them. Waiting for your big cooldowns to come up as well. Tanking in this expansion is bad.

The thing is, the differences you outline in terms of how the gauge is built and spent between PLD and WAR, and how the gauge is used, translate in real gameplay terms to an actually really large difference in gameplay. Paladin ignores its gauge in raids unless necessary for mechanics, while Warrior's entire gameplay revolves around it. Holy Spirit and Fell Cleave only resemble each other at all during Requiescat and Inner Release windows, because while Fell Cleave is the reward for building your resources by doing combos, Holy Spirit should be never used outside its window. Warrior manages resources constantly, Paladin largely has no real management involved, Warrior does very little damage through combos and as such doesn't lose a lot from downtime outside inner release, Paladin can't afford to miss combos (of which it has 3 in a strict sequence) but has a much more forgiving spam phase thanks to the mobility in requiescat, Paladin has off-gcds, Warrior barely does, etc.

Paladin and Warrior are only truly homogenized in mitigation like all tanks are right now, but their DPS rotations are only superficially similar. Dark Knight could afford to be more distinct from Warrior, but Dark Knight has the foundations of an off-gcd spam class while Warrior is almost purely gcd damage, they just need to build on that, and maybe make Delirium at least a bit more distinct from Inner Release.

[Yeol]

we are already at the bottom of the tank dps list.

Just a small note. To anyone who is commenting about DRK dps.
Being bottom dps is not as bad as people think.

It is the difference in dps that matters. For example:

E2S - 80%
PLD: 7,953.73 <-- Top
GNG: 7,941.47
WAR: 7,763.85
DRK: 7,743.42 <-- Bottom

Top - Bottom = PLD - DRK = 7,953.73 - 7,743.42 = 210.31
That difference is so small. I wouldn't bother with tank dps unless the difference was much bigger.

Another thing to note, DRK has the best single target mitigation, and is the best at magic mitigation.
If DRK mitigates well, the healers can easily cover the 200 dps difference.

Using words like bottom of dps or lowest dps can be very misleading to many. It's not wrong but, many will misunderstand it.