Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[shao32]

Tryng some 1st kill in my server on HW i can say DK wasnt good as it is now, and as i remember 1st DK was a copy paste of paladin BUT with a useless Dark art mechanics, to compensate the mana regeneration. activing his stance make him not able to regenerate MP if not by self spells, blood weapon used to gain attack speed was not really a good tool when you were suppose to do SPELLS(all AoE) and not skills, well you allready sayd the blind mechanic+ his ONLY AoE spells used to consume MP making his managament during pulls a real pain in the ass. WAS BAD, really really bad.
For now, TBN mitigation is way better of extra HP or % mitigation over anoter % mitigation, since as DK un can get full value of your % mitigation+ you get a shield that mitigate a standard part of a mitigated damage. saw no1 take solo tank buster in p3 from Eden4s that suppose to be shared only using 40%+20%+TBN easilly as DK can, as I did, as every DK can. Why? Shield is way better of multiple mitigation stacked. And you cant heal if you die from the damage.

Complaining coz the actual job cant selfsustain if just lame. You wanna sustain change tank, DK is not a sustain tank. is a shield based tank. If you wanna complain abount low number of shields or about TBN be more spammable, well u right, i can approve it. But remembering a BAD DK just coz you dont remeber it well as i am, No. Was shit, a copy paste, with no regeneration but AoE with HUGE MP cost, and worst defensive tools of other tanks.

ok ok lets go by parts.

DRK wasn't a copy paste PLD at all, PLD came from ARR with only 1 combo to HW become a 3 combo job, 1 for damage 1 for agro and other for a dot like current version of the job, DRK have 3 combos, 1 for agro and 2 for damage that use a priority system depending of you resources, have MP for DA? souleater, no? then delirium, have a dot called scourge on GCD that you refresh each 30s while PLD only refresh his goring blade and then spam royal autority and repeat, hardly the same gameplay.

the darkside mechanic preventing the job to gain resources from external sources was made to control his MP economy since DRK performance was heavely based on the MP and prevent further imbalance betwen tanks DPS and no depend of other jobs so heavily to archive max performance.

blood weapon works perfectly as a single target tool while on aoe situations you depend more of blood price and the insane amount of resource you gain during the duration of the buff, remember baelsar wall? i did and i pull entire armys and survive alone with blood price and abyssal drain +DA spam making me inmortal, if the pull still was alive when blood price ends DA +dark passenger + Dark dance give me a huge rate of doges and i don't need to say how good is that on top of my personal mitigation shadow skin and shadow wall, the problem is when you try to use both blood price and the evasion strat at the same time, DRK was actually overpowered in aoe situations like WAR and his bloodbath steel ciclone/demiate berserk window.

i mean if you complaing about blood weapon being only effective on single target situations back on HW you should now complaing that edge is only efective on single target and flood only against aoes with that means is the same bad desing acording to you.

i don't deny shields are better mitigation tools, please don't asume my response was to prove another thing, same with the actual lack of self healing of the job, i was being informative, the point you can soak more damage and stay with more HP on the end is not more effective that a job that soak less damage but have the capability to recover a fair amount after the hit by himself as long both can survive the hit wich currently all of them does. currently all tanks have more or less the same efective HP with his mitigation tools, meaby GNB is a bit lower and DRK is a bit busted but thats all.

The actual DK got a gr8 affinity in his kit(but need some tweaks, expecially LD), every skill work well with others, as i saw some1 complain once u used a full rotation, you have noting to do but 1,2,3. well thats coz is a simple tank with only 1 rotation, giving more OGC make no difference, sice once used all still you keep do 1,2,3 like ALL other jobs. But giving other combo, will make him overtuned compared other tanks. evry tank have his own good and bad. DK MUST NOT have all, he just need to tweak some part of his kit that dont work as well as supposed to do post 5.0.

i don't see the afinity as you claim the job have, edge/flood only do damage and keep darkside up with it's just a flat buff that you don't bother to manage, dark arts use to interact toseveral skills and his use determinate not only what GCD you should use (DA+souleater>delirium) but the priority of the MP spenders (DA+carve and spit > dark passenger > DA+ souleater) now is only edge and TBN when you need it.

carve and spit no longer have a choice neither interaction with other skills aka DA, the damage was better on single target, the MP on aoe pulls for MP economy, salted earth use to aport blood now does nothing but lower free damage, blood weapon and delirium buff use to work together to archive a greater resource generation now are complety independent and only affect GCD, old blood weapon use to affect oGCD too and by adition since delirium extend blood weapon it does too.
TBN use to create a great aoe rotation sinergy, TBN to create blood, quietus to create MP and abyssal drain spam with DA if you need it to repeat, now TBN only grant flood that adds mostly damage apart of darkside and quietus are more dependent of blood weapon and delirium in separate windows for being used, abyssal drain is a independent oGCD, same as plunge, same as salted earth ect ect, i hope you get where i going.

oh and i apologize if something doesn't seems to be clear, language barrier.

[LichKaiser]

...

Actually now DK have a more fluid skill set up, every skill got is own tool, own utility, indipendent YES, but now every Indipendent skill can work to make DK work better, 2 offensive tools that increase % damage to manage, 3 MP regerative tools (carve and spit.. well just coz it used to have an interaction doesnt mean was good, trade mp regeneration for extra damage with mp cost and no more mp regen was bad interaction), as i sayd his AoE was bad, manage MP to AoE pulls was a crazy bad idea that got eventually changed and i am gratefull. etc..
What i mean not all skills must interact with others for the sake of interact, if they do it very poorly and in a bad way. skill must interact with the entire complessity of kit. The actual work well(simple but every1 need to be used for a reason, well untill u think waaahh DPS MUST SPAM ALL). The old 1 was a spam of Dark Art to empower some part of the kit for some random affinity OR loose the affinity of the kit. And in some way(the blind) was more a fuck up empowered skill. + his old kit wasnt really a good way to enphatize the anti-magic tank buster idea like he is now.
Affinity doesnt mean that 1 skill must do the work for all the kit, affinity mean every skill work with ALL the kit. Empower it, make it better and help it. solidify the meaning of be DK not making him nearly worthless without.
example. FoS now is a buff of 10% damage+30s for a max of 60s+damage. 3000cost
if used twice, you have a bit less of 60s, of damage increased. for 6000cost.
now you ve a lot of time to ensure to use a rotation of skills to regenerate mp, and you can CHOOSE to use TBN to mitigate damage on self or ally to proc it and having a free FoS to refresh his duration OR use it directly to refresh it if not enogh damage to break TBN in that moment, OR use both to as defensive tool if needed+ huge cost/burst effect.
On HW you needed his own stance to be allways up by himself, not even interacting, just a perma buff on damage(at the cost of not having others mp regen ticking), and use Dark Arts to empower a kit (with some spells be really useless empowered, other not good as cost efficency) with no real gain or satisfaction(like increase damage by 100 on souleater, or increase enmity on 2nd hit combo, i dont remember the name.) or a must need to empower(Abyssal drain, who heal you ONLY if empowered).
The idea was good, but the interaction was bad, but to have a good interation they needed to overtune the kit if empowered.
what i like now, is a simple kit that identify DK for what he do best+ a good interaction with spells and a good feel on use them to gain something in every aspect, damage, hp, mp, etc. They are situational YES but good. And IF you fuck up something there is allway a OGC not used UP to help you.
Example.. Wasted too early Dark mind? well you ve Sentinel up, or TBN or Rampart.
You wanna be a perfectionist? Dark mind+TBN best tank buster tool+ Rampart UP on cd to mitigate stuff during all run.
Fail a pull and no Mp to next pull? well now AoE have no Mp cost, u can keep play and do another pull+ now you can regenerate Mp with Stalwart soul (aoe) or syphon stryke (single) other blood weapon+ DK now generate Mp overtime
etc
Just be DK now feel like you have really low downsides IF you do wrong something with managment (high cost managment, damm bit less of 30% of entire mp pool), you dont get punished as before, and you get rewarded if you do right, THX to the actual kit and how it work.
What i still h8 is the MUST NEED to fuck up 1 benediction from WHM coz i am in LD or i die, no matter if i tank swap and i take no more damage for next "x" seconds.
Or.. if i pull 2 waves of adds i have no regenerations or CD to help me with next pull,
Or.. soo now Salted earth got nerf... on all... do i got utility from it?no. do i have some sorta of interaction with it? no. do i ve defensive tool with it? no. What exactly SE do? a bit of AoE damage on a long CD ..THE END... soo why i have this skill istead of a better 1? or more utility, or extra mitigation?
I would prefer a TRAIT that give DK the UNIQUE PASSIVE to PARRY magic damage with sword istead of the actual Salted Earth XD

[shao32]

I consider you don't have any idea/experience on how HW DRK use to work on what you say, or probably you was bad playing it, no offense.

But claiming this version have more sinergy between skills, more resource management witch is false since the MP generation is much more inconsistent that HW and SB and now DRK is more anti-magic is something with all respect a ignorant will claim, specially the anti-magic part since HW DRK was know to mitigate magic better that the other 2, actually dark mind is weaker that SB so it's less anti-magic tank now.

You find the old mechanics uninteresting or to hard or no rewarding probably bcs you didn't know how they work properly it's fine but don't claim HW have inexistent lacks and problems when the job was face to face against HW WAR on damage, was literally immortal in dungeon pulls and utility was way much more impactfully than now, miss you reprisal.

BTW you gain around 4 use of edge/flood each min so you don't use never TBN to storage a dark arts for darkside, the only purpose of the proc right now is increase the amount of edge you can land on trick attack, if you have to plan the uses of edge and TBN bcs darkside you are playing the job wrong.

[Absimiliard]

But claiming this version have more sinergy between skills

Uhhhh. You do realize DRK's original design had so little synergy that one of the most common complaints about it was that it basically worked against itself, yes? It would still perform quite well in magic-heavy fights, but the play style itself put a ton of people off from wanting to play it.

[shao32]

Uhhhh. You do realize DRK's original design had so little synergy that one of the most common complaints about it was that it basically worked against itself, yes? It would still perform quite well in magic-heavy fights, but the play style itself put a ton of people off from wanting to play it.

What are you talking about? HW DRK kit and gameplay have a lot of sinergy, skills buffing skills and dinamic GCD and MP spenders thanks to that, only the parry mechanics/blood price work against the evasion/blind buffs that are for some situations and still they didn't meant to be use at the same time since you can use blood price and get a lot of mp and abyssal drain uses and then a lot of dogges if the pull was still alive on the down time.

Only put off ppl that want to be a 1-2-3 tank like in ARR, DRK was complex compared to the other 2 and that was part of the fun.

[LichKaiser]

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ok now i see, just another fan boy of HW DK who just dont lissen and wanna talk, speaking of what he think is good.
I proved many times how good is actual DK compared old HW DK, no need more. Care none of your opinions, feel more you have no idea of what are you talking about, did my 1st kills at that time, soo probably i have more experience of you on HW DK. Im happy they changed the kit, it was shit. now need to tweak the actual kit and nothing alse.
No offese but i ll not use more of my time to reply to a wall like you, who doesnt wanna lissen and just wanna impose his own idea with little facts that in most cases can easily beated like i did. I am here to say my feed back on 5.0 DK, and thats it

- rework Living Dead or give better interaction, i saw solid ideas till now
- better AoE "pull to pull" mitigation or regeneration
- Salted earth anti-synergy with actual kit. add some tool, rework it or just change it with another spell

[shao32]

ok now i see, just another fan boy of HW DK who just dont lissen and wanna talk, speaking of what he think is good.
I proved many times how good is actual DK compared old HW DK, no need more. Care none of your opinions, feel more you have no idea of what are you talking about, did my 1st kills at that time, soo probably i have more experience of you on HW DK. Im happy they changed the kit, it was shit. now need to tweak the actual kit and nothing alse.
No offese but i ll not use more of my time to reply to a wall like you, who doesnt wanna lissen and just wanna impose his own idea with little facts that in most cases can easily beated like i did. I am here to say my feed back on 5.0 DK, and thats it

- rework Living Dead or give better interaction, i saw solid ideas till now
- better AoE "pull to pull" mitigation or regeneration
- Salted earth anti-synergy with actual kit. add some tool, rework it or just change it with another spell

the only thing you prove is DRK now is way more simple aka = better for you, i respect anyone that preffer simple jobs but that doesn't mean complex ones are = to bad, DRK in the past prove to work beatutiful well and it was fun except you are bad at it, yes DRK never was perfect but you overexagerating his problem with other problems that could be solved by playing the job properly. DRK use to be strong and fun if you find it clunky bcs you wasn't unable to manage the job properly it was your problem.

i have no problem on healty conversation about old interactions of the job but if you say im not listen and im a fanboy when i tried to explain why you are wrong and using my personal experience over 4 years maining it, if im a old fanboy that make you a DRK hater by the same logic, remeber every feedback made in the past was made to make DRK more like in HW bcs ppl like HW DRK keep that in mind.

[Seku]

Uhhhh. You do realize DRK's original design had so little synergy that one of the most common complaints about it was that it basically worked against itself, yes? It would still perform quite well in magic-heavy fights, but the play style itself put a ton of people off from wanting to play it.

Dark Knight did have synergy when it first released. It put INT down up which basically kicked monk out of the raid Meta.

It was also arguably the best Main tank due to Low Blow damage procts and had some of the best Tank Buster mitigation due to the fact that most Tank busters were magic based at the time, which kicked PLD at the time out of the meta.

The only thing that was off was Dark Arts Dark Passenger + Blood price, due to the blind effect forcing mobs to miss you or if you by chance got a white mage that used Holy to stun the mobs.

The simple fix would have of course just been to do what they did with it now. Which is to allow for Blood weapon to be used in and out of Tank stance and have given it the added bonus of restoring MP per enemy hit while keeping it's same value for mp restore. It's not like Dark Knights where hurting for MP any how due to the fact that larger pulls would keep them full and thus allow for them to spam abyssal drain with Dark Arts to keep themselves up permanently, assuming no WHM with Holy.

As for how I think they should go about doing with Dark Knight this expansion though.

1. Lower the cost of the TBN to like half of a Edge / Flood of Shadow and extend the duration of the shield by like 3 seconds. This will be a small reward for people playing the class right as then you will then be in a DPS gained situation as a reward for having the shield burst and mitigating damage, and bring back some of the "Hit me and I hit you back" game play.
2. Lower the Recast time of Abyssal Drain to like 30-45 seconds.
3. Allow for the second hit on our AoE combo to restore a small amount of HP per hit.
4. Get rid of the nerf to Dark Mind, maybe up it's mitigation due to it only stopping Magic Damage. I think the same should be done with RI on warrior. Or make it so that they both just block both damage types.
5. Raise Dark Missonary's aoe magic reduction up to 20%. No reason why it should be lower than PLD's passage of arms.

I would make more suggestions about re-working some skills and bringing back old ones. Maybe putting in some actual traditional Dark Knight themed effects / abilities. But let's be honest, DRK isn't SE's dream child WAR. And before they fix DRK, their probably going to fix WAR and leave DRK in the dust....again.

[Absimiliard]

1. Lower the cost of the TBN to like half of a Edge / Flood of Shadow and extend the duration of the shield by like 3 seconds. This will be a small reward for people playing the class right as then you will then be in a DPS gained situation as a reward for having the shield burst and mitigating damage, and bring back some of the "Hit me and I hit you back" game play.
2. Lower the Recast time of Abyssal Drain to like 30-45 seconds.
3. Allow for the second hit on our AoE combo to restore a small amount of HP per hit.
4. Get rid of the nerf to Dark Mind, maybe up it's mitigation due to it only stopping Magic Damage. I think the same should be done with RI on warrior. Or make it so that they both just block both damage types.
5. Raise Dark Missonary's aoe magic reduction up to 20%. No reason why it should be lower than PLD's passage of arms.

I would make more suggestions about re-working some skills and bringing back old ones. Maybe putting in some actual traditional Dark Knight themed effects / abilities. But let's be honest, DRK isn't SE's dream child WAR. And before they fix DRK, their probably going to fix WAR and leave DRK in the dust....again.

TBN is already more than powerful enough. Gear scaling causes it to suffer a bit in non-savage content, but in savage it is working just fine. Mind you I would love it if they halved its MP cost, but the ability really is good as-is. Halving its MP cost would probably require them to nerf something else in our kit, which we really can't afford.

Abyssal Drain is a bad ability with how tank self-sustain is currently set up. A lower CD would be nice, but I don't see them doing it. Its current CD lines up with GNB's Aurora. That said, I could see them maybe making the healing aspect of it stronger. Right now AB's heal is pitiful unless you've got a ton of mobs on you, yeah? Well, maybe giving it a set potency (a bit less than clemency due to AB not costing resource/DPS) and no increased healing on larger groups instead of a shorter CD would work. Its damage component is already fine for something with zero cost and a heal attached.

Getting back a smidge more MP would probably be more beneficial in the long run than having a bootleg Brutal Shell heal attached, though I would love to have more self-healing on DRK either way. Has the worst self-sustain out of all the tanks right now, doesn't it? I'm still debating between DRK and GNB on that one

Definitely agree about Dark Mind. Or, if they're unwilling to return its mitigation to what it was before, they could lower the cooldown instead. 90 seconds is unreasonable for such a weak and circumstantial ability.

Dark Missionary is currently a slightly inferior version of GNB's Heart of Light. Their effects are the same, I grant you, but GNB gains access to theirs a full twelve levels earlier. I would love to see it made stronger, but the fact that GNB shares the exact same ability is going to interfere with convincing them to do that. Buffing one would likely necessitate buffing the other to avoid the online equivalent of a riot.

And warrior? Well, can't really argue with that one either. We'll probably end up seeing the warrior-god-of-tanks trope on full display again before too long. WAR and DRK are currently relatively well balanced; WAR has slightly stronger DPS normally, while DRK surpasses it when given the correct set of raid buffs. The one thing WAR does not currently have an answer to is TBN, and I hope they never do get something comparable.

[Shurrikhan]

1. Lower the cost of the TBN to like half of a Edge / Flood of Shadow and extend the duration of the shield by like 3 seconds. This will be a small reward for people playing the class right as then you will then be in a DPS gained situation as a reward for having the shield burst and mitigating damage, and bring back some of the "Hit me and I hit you back" game play.
2. Lower the Recast time of Abyssal Drain to like 30-45 seconds.
3. Allow for the second hit on our AoE combo to restore a small amount of HP per hit.
4. Get rid of the nerf to Dark Mind, maybe up it's mitigation due to it only stopping Magic Damage. I think the same should be done with RI on warrior. Or make it so that they both just block both damage types.
5. Raise Dark Missonary's aoe magic reduction up to 20%. No reason why it should be lower than PLD's passage of arms.

1. That would remove any risk to arguably the most powerful mitigation/sustain-over-time CD in the game outside of Nascent Flash-Chaotic Cyclone-Chaotic Cyclone-Decimate-Decimate on trash.
2. That's fine, actually.
3. Why? You just gave that over to Abyssal Drain, and Stalwart Soul is already powerful enough to make Quietus painfully situational in trash where you can make use of TBN on CD.
4. RI blocks all damage. Camouflage is the only other typal mitigation, via parry, but even it has a universal mitigation component to an average total of 15% mitigation. RI, like Shelltron, are also not equivalents to DM. Their slot equivalents are effectively Thrill of Battle on Warrior and non-existent (replaced by base block chance) on Paladin.
5. Passage of Arms is a longer CD which costs the PLD its movement, any further mitigation opportunities, and its uptime -- in many ways the most punishing CD in the game if used outside of jump phases, especially given that the buff can still be slow to apply to higher-latency party members, making it difficult to reliably weave. There is absolutely no way DRK should have something stronger than that, "anti-magic" tank or no.