Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Sancho_Nyanta]

We also went up 10% last expansion, yes it is an assumption but not a critical one as I stated later: even at 21% you can find such points at which Sheltron begins breaking away from TBN.

I am going to assume that you mean that block rates went up by 10% last expansion. Which is an interesting fact that I was unaware of but did we also have blocking being nerfed at the start of last expansion too? Also it is a very critical assumption as your entire argument about whether or not Sheltron is able to mitigate more than TBN hinges on this fact. Why do I say this?

It's because I do understand your point that there is such a point that Sheltron will mitigate more than TBN. However you have not understood my point, which is that this point when blocking with Sheltron becomes greater than the shield of TBN is so high that you won't realistically be able to hit that point with current numbers. If I mitigate the 25,000 with Sheltron that means that I am taking 100,000 damage which is the assumed value of my max HP in the example that we have been using. This means that even if it did mitigate more, it doesn't matter because you are still dead. Allow me to show the math behind this.

Dmg Req=(TBN shield)/(Sheltron %) =with numbers=> (100,000*0.25)/0.2=125,000
Remaining HP = (Max HP)+(Mitigation amt)-(Dmg Req) =with numbers=> 100,000+25,000-125,000=0

You proposed 25% I accepted. 21, 22, 23, 24% also have examples of similar math, 25% just happens to be cleaner. I also pointed this out in my reply to you. Are you intentionally ignoring facts that don't support your opinion?

Um, no I didn't propose 25%, you did. I stated that you were making the assumption of reaching 25% while not having enough evidence to back you claims. I stated that 50 ilvs of change only netted 1% and that you'd have to get to another 5% to be equal to what you were assuming. Pretty sad that I have to point that out since you literally quoted where I said this. Another thing, 25% is cleaner? Not even sure what you are trying to say with this. Being cleaner is irrelevant. Just plug the numbers into excel and then you can play with the Sheltron % to see how it will come out. I guess you must be the pot trying to call the kettle black on ignoring facts that don't support your opinion and just make assumptions that work toward your argument.

Which points to why you are missing another point that I made: buster and follow up damage can now both be caught by a single use of sheltron. UwU Titan provides a nice clean example in which you take a 12k auto, 40k cleave, and 120k buster in the span of a few seconds. I we imagine such mechanics at level 80 you can see where this goes. You must be healed between these hits; at 100k TBN mitigates 25k Sheltron on its own will now mitigate 34.4k at 20%. Hard hitting tank buster +follow up damage in which you need to be healed gives the potential for a 20% mitigation over a duration to outweigh a single shield even if it as as strong at 25% of max HP. UwU Ifrit if you choose to mitigate through the buster Sheltron will now catch both busters, not just one though most people just invuln through this.

No. I understood your point. I simply conceded that I didn't know how the skills would interact with 1 another and thus stated depending on which way they would interact with one another would change the math, which is a factual statement. Allow me to prove this with math and assume we are using Shadow Wall.

Mitigated Amt1= (TBN shield)+(Dmg Req*CD%) =with numbers=> 25,000+(125,000*0.3)=62,500
Mitigated Amt2= (TBN shield)+[{Dmg Req-(TBN shield)}*CD%] =with numbers=> 25,000+{(125,000-25000)*0.3}=55,000

This is not an implication it is an assumption the reader is making. Saying I make less money than someone doesn't mean I'm poor. Saying I make more money than someone else doesn't make me rich. I drew a relative experience to how I am experiencing other tanks, which you need to know in order to make your implication.

Hate to break it to you but this isn't an assumption that I was making. Your examples are worded differently and are not analogous to your original statement. Here is the difference.

Saying I make less money than someone doesn't mean I'm poor. vs Saying I am poorer doesn't mean I'm poor.

Both phrases are very similar but the first one indicates only that you are making less money but the second one indicates that the subject posses the qualities of being poor. So by saying that Drk was "squishier" vs "takes more damage" you did, in fact, imply that Drk had the qualities of being squishy. English is tricky that way.

First off, our context it a trash pull; where many enemies are hitting you. You aren't really claiming that Soul Eater is keeping you alive in anything that remotely resembles clemency are you? A 3 GCD wind up to a 5k heal compared to 1 GCD 25k heal.

I have had pulls take so long my original rampart has come back. I use pf for dungeons. Yes, at times I have to clemency myself to live because nothing else is up. And then I adjust my pull size.

I don't recall saying whether or not soul eater's healing capacity compared to Clemency's. My exact statement was that they were both options that go towards survivability. They do in fact both provide healing and so regardless of the quantity of healing done, they can contribute to how long you can survive. That said I also stated that you shouldn't be using either one under normal circumstances. If you are in a trash pull and Rampart has the time to come off CD then your DPS really needed to step up their game. Can't say that I've ever had pulls take that long. Heck I've had cases where I've had to do a smaller pull just because things haven't come off of CD fast enough for how fast things are dying so I just let TBN carry me through a small pull and let them reset.

Or I have time to pop additional cooldowns? For example my Camo on gnb, Nascent flash on warrior, clemency myself on pld, pop rampart, and oh yeah be healed; use self heals all while my first mitigation is still active. What if I am doing this at the end of my pull where things will start dying and I just need to hang on for a few more seconds. Seems like I can do this.

You've barely addressed the points raised against you; you failed to consider common tanking mechanics; and drew bad conclusions based on surface examples with admittedly little context.

This is the scenario that YOU created: 7 seconds of duration, 10 enemies, 50k per 3 seconds, and Sheltron/Hos mitigating for the full 7 seconds.

Going outside of that means that you are throwing other variables into the equation. If we were to take this scenario with pretty much any tank, you would need a minimum of 2 CDs, both of which would have to have a minimum of 20% mitigation to survive more than 7 seconds and this is assuming that you have BOTH up for the FULL 7 seconds. So how many CDs do you really think that you'd have to survive this? If you were pulling and taking this amount of dmg then you wouldn't make it to the end where you just need to hang on for a few sec. I could show you the math if you REALLY want it. I would say that I have addressed all the points you've tried to raise. So just who is REALLY drawing bad conclusions based on surface examples with admittedly little context?

If I wanted to rip into TBN I would talk about the fact that it is stil risk without reward as it was in Stormblood and continues to be in in shadowbringers. It does have drawbacks: It is risk without reward, it isn'tas strong as % mitigation over a duration for sustained high damage in the form of things like Ahk morn where 20% mitigation will get you more (which an example of where Dark mind is powerful but now imagine a physical version like in a7s); and is bad against fluff damage which we still lack a sufficent answer to unless you can time it with high precision.

Well someone has watched Xeno's latest video. He is wrong and so are you about the risk vs reward. The risk is having lowered your DPS and the reward is being able to produce a shield as big as TBN without causing any significant disruption of your DPS output. I have proven with the above math that within the same time frame the % mitigation can't beat what TBN is doing without getting greater %. The only other way would be to have greater time but if we do this then we aren't really comparing apples to apples anymore now are we?