[MAJOR SPOILERS] On Souls and the Lifestream

[Balfuset790]

I dunno if this is going to get me in trouble or not, but I'm going to spoiler tag this as much as I can. So, major story spoilers for the conclusion of Shadowbringers to follow.










So, from the revelation given to us by Hythlodaeus, we are now aware that the Warrior of Light (as well as Ardbert) were fragments of the same Ascian soul, one that existed within Amaurot during the Calamity which was the catalyst for Zodiark's creation. However, we also know that the Lifestream exists, and souls pass through a cycle of life, death and rebirth.

Firstly, this assumes that we take Hythlodaeus' words at face value - which I am inclined to do, given the fact that Emet-Selch saw a brief glimpse of us as an Ascian-like figure, even if hubris has blinded him tot he fact and he put it down to a trick of his senses.

Are the number of souls in the world constant? Are all souls that flow through the Lifestream the Sundered remnants of the population of the First Race? Were all sentient creatures even of the same race, or were there others? Can new soulds be created?

This is important because if the answer is that the number of souls is constant, and they can neither be destroyed nor created then surely everyone is a fragmented Ascian soul? Though if they were not the only people on the Source before the sundering that may not be the case. Is it significant that we were AN Ascian... or that we were an IMPORTANT Ascian? Hythlodaeus certainly knew who we were, and Emet-Selch apparently should have, though I think he chose to interpret what he was seeing as we were merely a 'strong-willed' mortal, possibly able to contain the Light.

IF new souls CAN be created, and we do know they can be destroyed as that's what we do with Ascians like Lahabrea and Emet-Selch when using the Blade of Light and Auracite on them, isn't it? Then not everyone that lives today was born of an Ascian soul fragment. That we specifically, and not all the Scions, are referred to as 'seven times rejoined' makes me inclined to think that is the case.

OF course, what if we don't take Hythlodaeus at face value? His name is drawn from Thomas More's Utopia and the character of Raphael Hythlodaeus, with the name Hythlodaeus meaning 'dispenser of nonsense'. Is it nonsense to us? Or is it that because he is merely the only shade of Amaurot who knows this is an illusion, that his words are nonsense to his peers, who all believe the carefully crafted lie of Emet-Selch's fabrication?

...food for thought. Discuss.

[Anonymoose]

Sorry about how long EDITING IN PROGRESS was up; the forums haven't been behaving well for me.

So far, that interpretation holds up, I think. I would call them (capital-a) Ancients, though. Ascian means "shadowless" and refers to the entities that came after, but to call them Amaurotine doesn't capture the race, just one locale. I think Hythlodaeus was suggesting that we were the 14th member of the Convocation which left just prior to Zodiark's summoning, but I could be conflating two foreshadows. Hythlodaeus says that both he and we were close with Emet-Selch once upon a time, as well. The "nonsense" part is interesting, but I think perhaps meant to be ironic. In More's work, it would have implied the entire text was nonsense, but it was still put forward. In a manner of speaking, what Hythlodaeus is saying is nonsense to our character, but perhaps he isn't wrong.

You raise good questions about the Lifestream, though - the very questions we should be asking - the very questions I can't answer.

I thought about it as I was playing and decided to assume that there were so many Ancients in Amaurot's day (look at the size of just that one city) that there was a chance the devs would just rely on that - because the world has never been so populated again - and ignore this consideration entirely. In terms of where to put my mental RAM for the time being, there are bigger fish to fry.

But you're asking good questions.

[Eloah]

I can't say I full grasp all that is trying to be accomplished by the devs but there are a few other bits of info that are interesting. First is that in the book, Amaurot is the name of the capitol city of the Utopia, which is surrounded by thorn filled trenches on three sides and the river Anyder on the fourth. Another thing is the word Utopia. In the time of the book the word meant "no where" showcasing its fictional nature. In the context of the game I think this is supposed to demonstrate that the city is an illusion, not that it never existed.

There is also some info to be learned about Emet-Selch, which is apparently a title not his true name. His name actually being Hades. Both give us some insight into his nature. In the FFXII mythos he is known as, the Scion of Light, Emet-Selch Angel of Truth, a foil to Zalera the Death Seraph, with power over death and representing Gemini. First him being an "Angel of Truth". Throughout the story, though our character and the NPCs may not believe him, you are never meant to feel like he is lying, and you learn at the end everything was the truth all along. And him controlling "death" works on two level. One just being an Ascian, and two his reference to Hades. Hades is often depicted as "evil" but that's not the case. Hades is no more evil than the next guy, it's just because he governs death, and death is viewed as "evil" is he then associated with being it.

One final thing to be considered form all of this is who we are. Speculation is that we are the 14th member of the council who left opposing the summoning of Zodiark. Whether we went on to summon Hydaelyn is up for debate. But when talking to Hythlodaeus he references the 14th member as a "she". Now going back to FFXII for a sec, there are two known Scions of Light that are female, Igeyorhm and Ultima. There is also possibly Emmerololth: The Holy Queen, because of their title, but titles can be wonky, just look at Titania. Anyways, Igeyorhm has appeared, but not Ultima. And Ultima's mythos is about her rebelling, which is sorta what the 14 council member did, so it fits. Another possible connection is Emet-Selch's "friend". Emet-Selch and Yltima are the only Seraphs/Angels, and Emet-Selch is Gemini. Maybe the 14th member was a reletive, in this case a twin sister? It's a bit of a stretch but one that has some bases.

[Kyoraei]

One final thing to be considered form all of this is who we are. Speculation is that we are the 14th member of the council who left opposing the summoning of Zodiark. Whether we went on to summon Hydaelyn is up for debate. But when talking to Hythlodaeus he references the 14th member as a "she". Now going back to FFXII for a sec, there are two known Scions of Light that are female, Igeyorhm and Ultima. There is also possibly Emmerololth: The Holy Queen, because of their title, but titles can be wonky, just look at Titania. Anyways, Igeyorhm has appeared, but not Ultima. And Ultima's mythos is about her rebelling, which is sorta what the 14 council member did, so it fits. Another possible connection is Emet-Selch's "friend". Emet-Selch and Yltima are the only Seraphs/Angels, and Emet-Selch is Gemini. Maybe the 14th member was a reletive, in this case a twin sister? It's a bit of a stretch but one that has some bases.

I just went back and watched the cutscene again on my character and my friends. To clarify the gender, during the cutscene with Hythlodaeus they say "she" or "he" based on the players selected gender when talking about the soul we share with Ardbert. I got a "he" and my friend got a "she". The specific gender of the 14th member is not given, only that there were 14, but at the time of Zodiarks summoning it had been reduced to 13. The implication from the aether current quests and the final scenes leading to the end of the MSQ is that we are the 14th member, and at one time were friends with Emet-Selch but disagreed with the summoning of Zodiark, or at least the method/purpose given to the Primal when it was summoned.

Edit - Forgot to add my thing to this:

Regarding the third sacrifice to bring back the lost Ancients, it says that they would sacrifice some portion of the "living energy":

The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then,when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark... In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards.

I personally did not take this as meaning half of the lives that were on the planet after it was repaired, instead I took it as we in the Source mean it. The living energy, that is the energy of the planet, is the natural aether that exists in the ground, the plants, the sky, the sea, etc. Just like how a beast-tribe primal drains aether from the environment and crystals (Alexander is as close to Zodiark and Hydaelyn in terms of power and he knew he would drain the world dry in it's current state), they would cultivate and saturate the world with life so that it brimmed with natural aether far exceeding the norm, then they would take an equal amount from everywhere to trade for what they wanted returned to them from Zodiark.

[Cilia]

If what I've heard is correct, Hythlodaeus switches between "he" and "she" depending on your PC's sex while noting the similarity between you and whatever ancient Ascian Emet-Selch sees in you. (I'm not getting a Fantasia just to check.)

Anyway. Earlier on in Il Mheg, Alphinaud comments that the pixies' childlike temperaments is owed to them (supposedly) being the reincarnated souls of children. Just the same, the Fuath are supposedly reincarnated souls of those who were drowned. These, and the Warrior of Light being an apparently reincarnated Ascian, strongly suggest if not confirm that it's possible for souls to persist in the Lifestream. Otherwise they're simply errant souls, drifting in the aether until they're able to reincarnate - never entering the Lifestream.

Hmmm... In the past, when I sought to identify the true nature of ghosts, I came upon literature examining a similar subject.
The soul was likened to a core that resides in the aether, and its presence is what differentiates us from such beings as sprites and arcane entities.
Upon death, said core ordinarily dissipates alongside the aether that composed the flesh. However, it may be held together and bound to the corporeal realm, either by the will of its owner or by means of certain arts.
In time, the soul may regather aether unto itself to assume another form, or find newly emerged life in which to abide. The pixies may be one such instance of this.

If the Warrior of Light's souls is a reincarnated Ascian who fell into the Lifestream, chances are Hydaelyn kept that core intact to use it again at a later date - if she has usurped Zodiark as the "will of the star," I doubt it's beyond her capabilities.

New souls can be created from raw aether, presumably, but how often this occurs instead of recycling old souls is a question worth asking.

The use of Amaurot and Hythlodaeus (references to Thomas More's Utopia) is probably meant to reference how the Amaurot we see is an illusion - it's nowhere, which is the almost direct translation of the word "utopia" - or that even that supposedly utopian existence wasn't perfect.

I don't put much stock in the use of XII's Scion of Light names being used for the Ascians - they're just small references.

That said, I'm strongly inclined to believe the Warrior of Light is, in fact, the reincarnation of that last member of the Council of Fourteen who disagreed with the summoning of Zodiark and abandoned their post.

[Neophyte]

Anyway. Earlier on in Il Mheg, Alphinaud comments that the pixies' childlike temperaments is owed to them (supposedly) being the reincarnated souls of children. Just the same, the Fuath are supposedly reincarnated souls of those who were drowned. These, and the Warrior of Light being an apparently reincarnated Ascian, strongly suggest if not confirm that it's possible for souls to persist in the Lifestream. Otherwise they're simply errant souls, drifting in the aether until they're able to reincarnate - never entering the Lifestream.

I don't take those 'fairy tales' seriously tbh. I mean... if souls persist in the lifestream, there shouldn't be 'child souls', bcs... well... every soul was a child once (or twice or...) and every soul reborn would also always start as a child. So wth is a 'child soul'?

I mean:
Adult person dies
-> adult soul gets into lifestream, ready to be reborn (but not as fairy, since no child)
-> soul gets reborn in a new born child (the former adult soul is a child soul now) and dies
-> child soul gets reborn as fairy
-> soul trapped forever in a childlike state

If fairies are immortal and child souls get likely turned into fairies and fairies always and forever stay childish (and so their soul) AND the number of souls is constant.. we should run low on souls at some point, lol.

[Alleo]

I don't take those 'fairy tales' seriously tbh. I mean... if souls persist in the lifestream, there shouldn't be 'child souls', bcs... well... every soul was a child once (or twice or...) and every soul reborn would also always start as a child. So wth is a 'child soul'?

I mean:
Adult person dies
-> adult soul gets into lifestream, ready to be reborn (but not as fairy, since no child)
-> soul gets reborn in a new born child (the former adult soul is a child soul now) and dies
-> child soul gets reborn as fairy
-> soul trapped forever in a childlike state

If fairies are immortal and child souls get likely turned into fairies and fairies always and forever stay childish (and so their soul) AND the number of souls is constant.. we should run low on souls at some point, lol.

Well not everyone dies as a child and we simply dont know if we only have all souls being recycled or if new ones can be created. Anyway I think that quest pointed out that a child died (not sure if a certain age was needed) and instead of becoming part of the lifestream they somehow were left back on earth and became the new race. The same for those that drowned. So I guess that not every child that die will become one.

[QT_Melon]

One hypothesis on why Hythlodaeus could see both Ardbert and the WoL is because he is a self aware shade himself, and Emet in current form wasn't exactly aware of other shades like Ardbert around him - he gave no mention he could see him. But a shade being able to see us and another shade makes sense in that regard.

The question about Souls and the lifestream is an interesting one. I mean I had been thinking about FF7's ending at least direction from one of the devs is that life was better without humanity. I mean would it be that in the end if new souls can't be created the eventual extinction of mankind is in store but the planet lives?

[Alleo]

I honestly wonder if something like the lifestream even existed before the sundering. Seemingly the Ancient ones are of long life and in the face of death and destruction they simply paniced. So if nobody is dieing do they even have a lifestream? What about the creatures they created? Did they die? How was it possible to live forever, yet still give birth to new life? Where did those souls come from? And how did they not manage to overgrow the planet? Or was this the reason the calamity even happened?

I do find your questions interesting OP. In the end Emet hated us for our imperfect souls and also for the cycle of death it created. Yet death was possible with the Ancient ones too..Emet also believes that Zodiark can give back those that sacrificed themselves to him..so does that mean that he kinda has all the souls of these people in him? I wonder if in the end we will free those souls from Zodiark and release them to the livestream so that they too can be reborn again..

Anyway I hope we will get more answers to that.

The question about Souls and the lifestream is an interesting one. I mean I had been thinking about FF7's ending at least direction from one of the devs is that life was better without humanity. I mean would it be that in the end if new souls can't be created the eventual extinction of mankind is in store but the planet lives?

Hm that would only be the case if the old souls are all destroyed but seemingly it does hint that souls continue to exist and become people again just without the memories of their past.

[Seraphor]

I honestly wonder if something like the lifestream even existed before the sundering. Seemingly the Ancient ones are of long life and in the face of death and destruction they simply paniced. So if nobody is dieing do they even have a lifestream? What about the creatures they created? Did they die? How was it possible to live forever, yet still give birth to new life? Where did those souls come from? And how did they not manage to overgrow the planet? Or was this the reason the calamity even happened?

I do find your questions interesting OP. In the end Emet hated us for our imperfect souls and also for the cycle of death it created. Yet death was possible with the Ancient ones too..Emet also believes that Zodiark can give back those that sacrificed themselves to him..so does that mean that he kinda has all the souls of these people in him? I wonder if in the end we will free those souls from Zodiark and release them to the livestream so that they too can be reborn again..

Anyway I hope we will get more answers to that.



Hm that would only be the case if the old souls are all destroyed but seemingly it does hint that souls continue to exist and become people again just without the memories of their past.

Hydaelyn does seem to have some connection to the Lifestream, it could be that the sundering and 'creation' of 14 worlds, granter her a sort of dominion over the life she 'created' in the loosest sense (recycled from the original world)
In which case, all non Echo'd life really are Hydaelyn's children, and those with the Echo are her stewards/Ascians.

It could be that a sundered Amaurotian, aka like us, are unable to create new souls, being only 1/14th of themselves, and so Hydaelyn fulfils that role via the lifestream.

For one wild theory at least.