Theory on Hydaelyn and Zodiark’s nature

[Allyrion]

So I’ve kind of collected my thoughts after that wild ride of an MSQ. I put most of them in a Reddit thread that implied Zodiark represented Free Will and Hydaelyn was more controlling. I generally believe the opposite is the case. From what we know, I think we can infer a lot about what happened. I’m sure a lot of it may be redundant with what has been discussed here but I thought to post it anyway.

There’s a lot to talk about here, but there’s one thing I completely disagree with - Zodiark is aligned with free will while Hydaelyn imposes her will.

Zodiark tempered his followers, Emet-Selch says it himself that he is tempered. Zodiark is the creation of the Ascians before they were Ascians, so all the Primals we have dealt with are an indiciation of his nature since the Ascians taught it to the beast tribes.

Now the question of why they would create a tempering Deity is an interesting one and I have my own theories (though I’m open to others). I believe it was done to keep people in order, so as to avoid the confusion of rampant thoughts. The Calamity they faced was of their own making, of their own mind. It’s a dangerous thing that their thoughts beget creation, so Zodiark was their solution. He has the power of tempering because as the term “temper” implies, he’s there to keep things balanced and in check.


Hydaelyn is, quite frankly, the opposite. She did not let anyone know she even existed until recently. She required no worship and never asked to be summoned or used. She stays in the background, trying to keep things running.

Her main words are “Hear. Feel. Think.” If you look at “Answers” and at most of her dialogue in game, she has one main philosophy. She wants her creation to think for themselves and experience things in their own way.

I’m not saying Hydaelyn is some perfect god. Just that she represents the remaining Amaurotine’s desire to live freely. Originally, she may simply have been as they said in-game, a check and balance for Zodiark. Basically, Zodiark was given executive power, she Hydaelyn was made as a voice for the people so that their interests would not be forgotten. Inevitably, they clashed. Emet says they fought many times, it wasn’t that Hydaelyn simply roflstomped Zodiark upon entering the arena.

Both entities are just built to fulfill their programming, like a machine. There may come a time when we are at odds with Hydaelyn and we have a lot to learn about her conditions for summoning (i.e. her initial programming). But I think we can infer some things:

1) She is a Primal that doesn’t Temper. (Inc “We’re tempered by Hydaelyn”). She was built specifically to counteract that nature of Zodiark.

2) Hydaelyn’s ability to Sunder is as Tempering is to Zodiark. This is their special ability and their equivalent solution to stopping a repeat of the previous Calamity. Sundering stopped the use of Creation magic which was volatile and potentially Apocalyptic.

However, in any case, all we know about Hydaelyn points to her being a huge proponent for free will and diversity of belief/thought (hence creating differences in people). Zodiark is the opposite, he’s there to create order through control.

[Cilia]

Zodiark exists "to restore what was lost." His first act was to mend the laws of reality that the Sound had destroyed, his second to restore the planet to how it was before the Sound, and his third was to be restoring the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to create him.

Hydaelyn exists "to protect what is," particularly from the predations of Zodiark. While Zodiark is capable of performing miracles, those miracles come at a price - like all primals he needs aether, and Hydaelyn was created and summoned to ensure he did not consume extant life on the planet to power that third would-be miracle the remaining Ancients asked of him. The original portion was originally just "some," but these days it's all life left on the Source once the rejoinings are complete, and do not forget the wisdom of Cait Sith...

Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is everything to them who died... Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good! Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do whatever y'all want?

(This is fully applicable. The point of reviving the dead Ancients was so they could resume their role as stewards of the planet.)

Anyway.

I hold to the belief that Hydaelyn can temper people, she just chooses not to, and the Blessing of Light is kind of like a placebo tempering. The Warrior of Light is tempered by Hydaelyn, but unlike other primals she doesn't really alter their soul or compel worship or anything.

Hydaelyn's special ability is, according to Emet-Selch, the ability to "split" things aetherically, which she used to break Zodiark down to a level she could bind him in the moon (that binding being reliant on her Light aspect). Unfortunately, due to him being "the will of the star" this also broke reality around the selfsame star into the thirteen shards and Source we're familiar with.

I do agree that Hydaelyn is not the controlling, manipulative, deceitful goddess a lot of people are trying to portray her as in the wake of Shadowbringers. Her very existence owes itself to the fact some number of Ancients didn't want Zodiark feeding on the aether of other beings nonconsensually. Maybe she lied and maybe she's shady sometimes, but she literally cannot have anything but humanity's best interests at heart, so I don't really see the issue.

Hydaelyn exists to make sure the races of man aren't wiped out by the Ascians in their scheme to revive the dead Ancients. That doesn't necessarily involve binding Zodiark, but given the Ascians' intent to feed humanity to him...

Zodiark, for his part, doesn't appear to have much will of his own despite supposedly being "the will of the star." Rather he appears to be the Ascians' personal wish-granting machine.

[Allyrion]

I don’t disagree with you, except maybe on the Tempering. Of course, I think what you’re saying is possible too, until more information is provided to rule out one or the other.

I just don’t think it’s a coincidence that Tempering has part of Ascian’s summoning technique and then we find out that their mind was a dangerous weapon. They summoned a potentially mind controlling God after their minds almost destroyed the world. We don’t talk about Zodiark much in terms of tempering, but most of our info comes from a Tempered person. It makes sense he doesn’t delve much into it.

I think Zodiark embodies Amaurotine belief on the greater good. While they encouraged debate, critical thinking and creativity (through creation), they also discouraged individualism and creativity (through personal expression). Their society had to be like this because of the power they wield.

So I don’t think even Zodiark’s tempering is like the usual Primals. He’s probably not mind-controlling them as they made decisions on what to ask of him. I think their hard choices to sacrifice another half of the population and then part of the planet’s lifeforce, those may have been tempered so they could see it in a Utilitarian fashion.

I also don’t think Hydaelyn is necessarily in the right. I think there are good arguments for both sides. She’s in *our* right because we’re biased. They are both beings created from thought and founded on some sort of guiding principle. We need to learn more. Looking at what those Amaurotines would be thinking post-Calamity, it could give us some insight.

Most of all, I want to believe they were thinking of how to avoid another Calamity. That may be wishful thinking on my part.

[Cilia]

The thing is, the behavior of tempered people... varies. While they are all devoted to their "new god" and it alone, they are capable of rational thought and action, depending on what the primal wants. Ifrit's tempered - the ones seen most close-up - are slavishly devoted to him because he desires to dominate. Other tempered peoples engage in very different behaviors - such as the touched Sylphs kidnapping the normal ones so Ramuh can temper them (reconciliation, as it were).

By Emet-Selch's admission, he and the other tempered Amaurotines (most likely limited to the Conclave of Thirteen) exist solely to bring about the rule of Dark. They are still fully within their faculties though, and show full and complex personalities.

This is where my idea that "Hydaelyn can and does temper people, but she doesn't actually mess with their souls and it just stops other primals from doing the same" comes from.

As to who is wrong and who is right... who's to say? "Greater good?" You did read the quote from Cait Sith up there, right? When you do things "for the greater good," it becomes possible to justify anything... if you don't consider the consequences of your actions and how they will affect those around you, can you really consider yourself "good?" Is it OK to cull the living beings of the world and feed them to Zodiark to bring back the dead, because it's "for the greater good?" To go to the MCU, is it acceptable for Thanos to snap half of all sentient life out of existence because it was "for the greater good?"

Whose greater good?

To say nothing of the possibility of the resurrected Amaurotines rejecting the price that was paid to bring them back...

Erm. Sorry, rambling.

According to Hythlodaeus, after resurrecting those initially fed to Zodiark in order to mend and restore the planet by sacrificing "planetary life energy" to him, they intended to go back to how things were before the Sound. But you know what happened when they fielded that idea...

[Allyrion]

My response was intended to be in the same vein. Zodiark’s and his creators’ idea of the greater good is just one version of it. Likewise, Hydaelyn’s and her creators’ version of the greater good will be different and likely opposing.

I’m not surprised, however, that the Ascians seemed to believe their way is objectively better. They had a very Hellenic society, and thinking of the greater good in objective terms fits right up there with their Platonic rhetoric.

And yes, I was also saying that I do think (like you) that the Ascians had their faculties. Their tempering might really be just a balancing of their emotions and thoughts so that they can focus on their purpose and achieving their goals.

[QT_Melon]

I personally think Hydaelyn's ability to temper is in a different category since it may not even be a choice, but the people that summoned her instead of repeating the mistake of those that summoned Zodiark, (where they sacrificed others and were tempered in the process) instead sacrificed themselves.

I'm still in the mindset of #neitherprimal

This is because of the long term effects both primals have. Having Zodiark around as the will of the star isn't good, and to me eventually neither is Hydaelyn. While the system of "recycling" souls ie through sundering seems fine, I feel like there needs to be an introduction of new life and new souls or as people have described the excess of light as - it becomes Stale.

I also see Hydaelyn as limited programming - system tool because it seems to make more sense than just "hey free will" when her very directive to every WOL was to get ride of Zodiark/banish the darkness. We see how well that went on the First.

Of course story wise if they hadn't come back to the Source- what would have been done of it? Her programming didn't change to make sure it adapted to the various aspects of each shard.

Her narrative of events also fits limited programming. If she's not malicious...then what was all that about? You can blame the writers at the time, but ignoring that or hand waving that narrative when it's ENCOURAGED to play New Game Plus which includes that narrative...yeah I think something is pointing to an explanation of her revelation in the future.

[Seraphor]

This makes perfect sense.

On Zodiark being "the will of the star". Tempering is nothing but the imposition of the eikons will on the individual, much the same as Zodiark imposed its will upon the Amaurotines, and upon the star itself.

Whether or not Hydaelyn can temper as well, I think it's clear that Hydaelyn doesn't impose her will, while Zodiark does.

[Xlantaa]

I agree with this. As far I know, the way Zodiark fixed the disaster caused by the Ascians creation magics was severely limit it. While this could solve part of the problem, he basically removed the free will. Hydaelyn represent the free will. Let people be whatever they want to be. That's why she is in background, acting only when it is necessary, not limiting anyone or imposing her will. Hydaelyn wants the life grow by it's own, with not interference. She will protect anyone from Zodiark desires of control.

Also, as I understand, Zodiark wants, in fact, be worshiped as a God. He is a tyrant, basically, enemy of the freedom. He fixed the problem yes, but a high price. That's why I don't understand very well why people think/wants that being Warrior of Darkness means obtain Zodiark blessing. Zodiark will not bless us never as he is our natural enemy. I guess it is the typical "I want to be the bad guy" thing or maybe the "He is the good guy but we don't know it".

For now, there is no reason to think that Zodiark is a good guy. He represent oppression and control, by all means. He dictated the rules of the world (or more specifically, he rewrote it) as he pleased. He fix the problem? Yes, more or less, as the OP said, at a high price. Zodiark seek our destruction, because our soul, a fragment of the person who seems Summon Hydaelyn in the past, is responsible of his imprisonment and, maybe, the only one who can destroy him forever.

I guess, at the end, we will destroy Zodiark (probably 6.0). Then, Hydaelyn will disappear with him, as she will not be necessary anymore, giving us back the free will again. No more God to decide our world rules.

[Jaywalker]

From how this thread is going, my sense is that possibly Zodiark embodies security while Hydaelyn embodies freedom. Zodiark would require homogeneity, agreement, order, unity, conformity, and repression in order to avoid potentially dangerous conflicts. Hydaelyn by comparison sparks individuality, new insight, inspiration, chaos, diversity (primarily of thought), and potentially uncontrolled emotion.

That still strikes me as a little odd though because it's been getting established that light is the umbral power linked to passivity and such.

I do think though that the repression of the Amaurotines was directly responsible (at least in part) for the Sound they experienced.

[Theodric]

I'm sure blind faith in Hydaelyn will turn out to be just as questionable as blind faith in Zodiark.

As I see it, both were summoned with the best of intentions but brought with them unintended consequences. There's also likely to be some sort of third party responsible for the catastrophe that led to the pair being summoned in the first place. I suspect the story will lead us towards finding a way to render both obsolete - which isn't all that out there as a theory now that we know that they're essentially just very powerful Primals and not actual deities in the typical sense.