Yoshi's post about client server and cheating

[viion]

MMORPGs have a lower standard for ping quality. And you're not getting 150ms ping to japan no matter how hard you try unless you move to Asia.

Honestly the only time where this really bothers me is in the menu response, especially when storing/retrieving items. During gameplay, I don't have a lot of issue with it. Not that it couldn't be better, but it's completely playable as it is now.

A roundtrip ping of 300ms (And remember, Yoshida was just giving an arbitrary number, not intending it to be an exact measurement) is not unacceptable in MMORPGS. It's high, but it's within tolerance.

It's not nonsense- You can't prevent all hacking and cheating, not by a longshot. However, that doesn't mean you just throw open the door and tell everyone, "Hey, go ahead and cheat, because we're not going to bother to do anything to secure our game."

Part of making your game more secure is not trusting the client with too much information. Most of those other "common" MMOs speed up the interface by only processing the transactions between client and server every so often, or only after a process has been completed fully (e.g. you're selling vendor trash and after you're finished and leave the NPC THEN the approval process takes place, such that you don't notice it the way you do in XIV). There are lots of things they can do to improve network performance, but they can't completely ignore client security either.

Umm what sherlock? Stating some obvious stuff there, of course its not meant to be open, but heck even just confirming numbers for a sale is easy and not really considered "anti cheat" imo, its just confirmation to ensure the server gets things right on their side.

You do not need a constant checkup on the server for every little action, even silly things are constantly checked which is pointless.

Also no, MMORPGS dont have a lower standard for ping quality because MOST mmos dont host their servers at the other side of the world than their customers, but again most mmos host in their family countries, so korean mmos have servers there, but even they offer US ones.

If SWTOR had a 300ping, people would flip, the, fuck, out, i can get a nice 50-80ms ping on SWTOR, which you need when it comes to fluid gameplay and ESPECIALLY PVP.

The thing is, MOST players dont understand this. 300 Ping is dreadful, thankfully XIV is a very slow paced game compared to a lot of MMOs so its hardly effected.

Also its funny how some people go "its only 0.3 seconds", no its not, it stacks up, when you have lots going on and only so much can fit in 1 packet at a time and the rest is queued, that 0.3 becomes 2-3 seconds, you can see this clearly evident when you're trying to do a lot of things with the UI (selling items, moving retainer stuff) or trying to cancel movement on casting. Other players also increase that latency due to all the data sending/receiving.

[Alhanelem]

Also no, MMORPGS dont have a lower standard for ping quality because MOST mmos dont host their servers at the other side of the world than their customers

You're wrong there, actually. It has nothing to do with where the servers are located. MMOs generally do not process and send data as fast because they have to deal with a lot more connections at one time than a single server for say, an FPS game does. FPS games demand much better pings because of their intense nature and level of precision required. But they can do this because you only have a small number of players per server system. On an MMO, the ping threshold is higher because the action is not designed to be as intense and data transfer takes place in ticks to ease the load on the server systems, which can have thousands of connections at once.

300 ping is dreadful for an FPS game, to the point of near unplayability. However, the same is not true for an MMO. MMOs are always tolerant of higher latency than other kinds of games.

(When I played wow, my latency would usually be between 160-220ms, even though almost any FPS game I could play I would have 100ms or less.)

Before you jump to any conclusions, I fully agree that FFXIV makes a lot of unnecessary checks that hold up the UI in particular. However, I dispute your statement that MMOS don't have a lower ping standard of quality, because the fact is they do. MMOs are generally high latency by their very design- they need to be in order to be able to handle such a large number of connections. the ".3 seconds" that yoshida talks about is not really that far from normal.

[viion]

You're wrong there, actually..

Stopped reading here, if you're that declined to not know that a lot of MMOs have good pings, (I can get an easy 50-80 on SWTOR) then theres no point debating with ya!

[Wolfie]

MMORPGs have a lower standard for ping quality.

That's debatable, see above for examples of MMOs that need good ping.

And you're not getting 150ms ping to japan no matter how hard you try unless you move to Asia.

It's like I'm talking in f**king Martianspeak to you.

JAPAN CLIENT <-> JAPAN SERVER 300 MS PING: BAD
JAPAN CLIENT <-> JAPAN SERVER <150 MS PING: GOOD
NON-JAPAN CLIENT <-> JAPAN SERVER 300 MS PING: BAD, UNAVOIDABLE, WILL GET FIXED WITH NON-JAPAN SERVERS

Do you get it? Can I please, please stop explaining myself like I'm talking to a baby?

[Jadi]

As a computer network engineer and information security expert.. I just want to say please stop bantering abound networking jargon before you guys hurt yourselves ok. Ping isn't going to tell you if the server can process and respond to you in the same amount of time so just stop.

Security isn't an absolute. Just because you can't have perfect security doesn't mean you should have none. You have to find a proper balance. SE can and should improve the security of the client and they can do so in ways that will not effect game play.

[Jinko]

As a computer network engineer and information security expert.. I just want to say please stop bantering abound networking jargon before you guys hurt yourselves ok. Ping isn't going to tell you if the server can process and respond to you in the same amount of time so just stop.

Security isn't an absolute. Just because you can't have perfect security doesn't mean you should have none. You have to find a proper balance. SE can and should improve the security of the client and they can do so in ways that will not effect game play.

Well sure, its pretty obvious the current servers aren't capable of processing the data fast enough (that's why we are moving to new servers in 2.0).

I have to admit the 300ms is on the edge of acceptable for me, I have played WoW many times with latency as high as that and not had a huge problems.

[Valmonte]

don't complain at SE for your high Pings, write up your ISP an tell them to stop bouncing you of that ancient ass 70's satellite they use for all Residential/Small Business connections

[Majidah]

FFXI was instant and didn't have hackers. I don't get it.

[Valmonte]

FFXI was instant and didn't have hackers. I don't get it.

would it shock you to know XI had loads of client checks....and the most popular type of hack used was wall hacking,

[neminis]

To not have hacks in the long run in an mmo is basically impossible.
To goal is to minimise the hacks to a point where they dont break the game. (like in xi)
If you just go all out on security trying to avoid as much as possible (as they did on xiv) it will just make people mad.

Honestly they should not settle to anything below xi (which is already pretty painfull compared to other mmo's)
I really really hope they can pull out a netcode which is on par of other modern mmo's. But his statement here clearly makes me doubt that since he is already apologising for it beforehand.