Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[NanaWiloh]

Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).

FF9 Ozma = difficulty based on rng

FF12 5 judges trail = difficulty based on knowledge

The latter is what crafting difficulty should be.

[CookiesNCreams]

Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).

See, when statements like that are made, I do not mind taking people off the ignore list. I do apologize for what I said, but it’s admittedly dry frustrating when you’re trying to make a point and people repeatedly ignore what you’re trying to say.

For the most part, I agree with what you’re saying. But all I want, is for hardcore or competitive players to get some content.

[Ryaz]

See, when statements like that are made, I do not mind taking people off the ignore list. I do apologize for what I said, but it’s admittedly dry frustrating when you’re trying to make a point and people repeatedly ignore what you’re trying to say.

For the most part, I agree with what you’re saying. But all I want, is for hardcore or competitive players to get some content.

No one is really arguing against harder, competitive crafting content. We're just arguing that RNG based crafting doesn't make something competitive or difficult. You can have someone who fails 10 times because of forces outside his control and have someone who succeeds first time because an algorithm decided to work for him. To me, that's not competitive.

The system needs an overhaul if you want a real, fair competitive crafting endgame.

[Lastelli]

Frankly, crafting really hasn't changed too much. You still try to reach some stats tresholds to reliably craft end-game stats with NQ mats, just as before. The difference now is that the rotations are much more obvious because we have less skills to think about.

The funny thing is that this rework goes in the opposite direction Yoshida said they were aiming for. The new changes made the rotations way more rigid than before (and therefore more easily convertible to macros) and to be honest I have no idea how this can change in future updates. If by "procs" they meant good/excellent procs, even increasing the proc rates to move the focus on the decision process linked to the skills only available during those conditions and the trade-off with tricks of the trade won't probably do much, unless the new recipes are so hard that even with max stats we'll have to rely on several hasty touches. This would increase the number of steps required and make procs relevant...assuming the proc rate is high enough.

[Caitlinzulu]

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

[CookiesNCreams]

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

And there you have it folks.

[Ryaz]

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

Except RNG does not equal challenge. It's 100% luck if you get a proc or not. You may do everything right and not get one, so you fail through no fault of your own.

Challenging would be having to deal with some sort of rhythm game and hitting a key with the right timing to maximize your touch potential (like say the monster punching mini-game in the Gold Saucer). Something that relies on player skill, not having a random number you can't control screw you over.

The only thing RNG gets you is multiple gathering trips if it doesn't favor you. It'd still be easy and people would eventually get the items they want, it would just waste more time to do it.

[Callinon]

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

Roulette is not a challenging game. Roulette is a brain-dead simple game. You place your bet and spin the wheel. If the wheel says you win, you win. If the wheel says you lose, you lose. You have no agency here at all.

If enough RNG is added that it becomes controlling on the success or failure of a craft, it just becomes a game of luck. If the RNG is not controlling on success or failure... it's the system we have right now where we design macros that overshoot the quality/crafting requirements for a given item such that the RNG just doesn't matter.

[Cleanse]

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

A priority based system would be challenging and not RNG based, maybe at the cost of being able to use macros.

RNG based systems can be and have been, even in 2.x, over-geared, which is what will happen if overpowered gear is added as a reward.

[Maeka]

I read all the post here to this thread. it seems like when cookies mention how much she makes month at a time and how hardcore she is at game...you and callinon seem to be one that got triggered and call her elitist lol

That's because she did so in a way that she was looking down her nose like the fact she treated FFXIV like a second job made her opinion more important than anybody else's and she took this "I'M BETTER THAN YOU, YOU DON'T KNOW SQUAT!" attitude.

I was fine until she did that.

If someone is a savage raider, hey fine. If a savage raider looks at me like my $14.95 is worth less than theirs, then they can go stuff it.