Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[CookiesNCreams]

@Aurida

I. Okay, instead of endgame content requiring procs, let’s talk about Ishgard Restoration (higher tier only rewards) requiring procs, and actual observation to HQ a craft. Let’s say, it’s only Ishgard. So that means casual players can freely do as they please with all endgame recipes, and hardcore players can compete for rewards (and against each other in Ishgard Restoration). Hardcore players just want some content, and don’t have a problem with casuals having things. But casuals seem to want anything even remotely hardcore to be neutralized. It’s hypocritical and spiteful.

Tell me. What about this bothers you? Something like that wasn’t meant for you. Everything shouldn’t be altered to meet your needs. Adapt.

II. That period of time for crafters was rather interesting. And I must say, I didn’t enjoy it. I would usually tank prices (reasonably) because I wanted players to afford things for a good price. Millions of Gil for a chest piece? No, not happening while I’m here, lol. So you can throw that judgement out the window in my case. Also, what’s wrong with feeling good about seeing players wear your gear? How does that affect you in any way? It’s fun. To argue otherwise just simply means you want to ruin these people’s fun all for your own satisfaction.

Tell me. Why does that bother you so much? It’s their fun, so what.

III. You. Can. Not. Macro. A. Proc. Also, it’ll require multiple procs, not just one. So you and your macros can’t really save the day when this happens in 5.2. I don’t know why you keep bringing that up. Flowcharts aren’t going to get the lazy players motivated enough to learn and understand crafting. You either want to craft, or you don’t. And 4.0 - 5.1 shows exactly who wants to learn crafting and who just wants to spam macros while they’re watching Game of Thrones on Netflix.

Tell me. Why do you think you can cheese through a proc’d rotation with a macro? You either understand crafting or you don’t. And 5.2 will make sure of that.

[Aurida]

To answer your questions with a question, why is the rhetoric here entirely focused around the concept of 'casuals' as some kind of formless entity that have managed to invade the ivory tower? You do actually have it exactly right- people who seek out the resources to be able to craft can craft, and those who don't either make their own way with whatever degree of possibly reduced viability they have.

It's inevitably going to be the same with Ishgard, and we're inevitably going to see the same kinds of complaint threads from the elitist upper-crust when anyone with cursory knowledge of crafting and the manual dexterity to press Delicate Synthesis on their controller (or keyboard, I won't judge) is able to play competently in that space.

In order to create 'hardcore only' content, it necessitates the creation of an arbitrary gate that keeps people out. Is this even necessarily a bad thing? No! We don't even disagree on this. But without the presence of a meaningful barrier to execution, as it stands anyone that can meld CP onto their gear and learn a basic rotation from readily available resources can do this thing, and all of the ideas that set out to be spiteful and petty about this seem to actively be calling for the system to become worse in the name of 'crafting is MY special thing! it's what *I* do! none of the rest of you should be able to have it!' and that's what a lot of 'casual' players take umbrage with.

The question now is, does that necessarily make them the enemy?

[NanaWiloh]

@cookiesncream lol Sorry I you saw mention cheese in your post to Aurida and now I want some gouda

[CookiesNCreams]

You calling us “elitists” basically just proves my point, lol. Arguing over this isn’t going to go anywhere. We simply want content, plain and simple. And yes, there should be a barrier that separates the two types of players. Also, since you really want to go there. You should stop treating hardcore players like they are some upper class, super secretive, super hateful, super snobby group of people that want everything to themselves. Ironically, the ones that seem to want everything to themselves would be a few casual players thinking they run FFXIV. Hardcore players are actually cool, we just want content.

And um, no. We’re not going to “inevitability” go through that. Really tired of repeating myself....but, Yoshida has made it clear that (we assume 5.2), HQ’ing recipes will require procs and cannot be macro’d like you for some reason, think it will. We just aren’t sure if that’s endgame recipes he’s referring to, or just high tier Ishgard content. The only thing that’ll “inevitably” happen would be players with your mindset making threads about how “unfair” it is that players actually earned their exclusive top tier Ishgard rewards and how they should have it too, with little effort.

I don’t know why you act like this is something so horrible and evil. Literally every video game you know of has some sort of barrier or gate, with rewards, that separates players who don’t care or are lazy, and players that are hardcore or just want rewards. Common practice in the industry. Stop trying to turn this into a casual only game, we pay for the game too. That’s my point here.

Sorry, but hardcore players are really fed up with 2+ years of easy crafting, and no hardcore content at the very least? There’s a limit. You can’t just completely butcher a system and expect 90%+ of your players to be okay with it. I’d say at least 40% of people aren’t okay with easy crafting. They just aren’t vocal on the forums because they have either ended their subscription or just given up trying to convince people. I’m basically their voice on this thread. Casuals and hardcores deserve content. By that, I mean, there should be a bubble for casuals....and a bubble for hardcores. Stop trying to lump them together in the same bubble. That’s ridiculous.

[CookiesNCreams]

Also, I need you to watch these two videos. Watch at least the first 50 seconds - 1.5 minutes of each one and listen to what he says. He’s a well known hardcore crafter who helps people. Read the comments too. Tell me what you see.

https://youtu.be/jwn8n8uFiKA
https://youtu.be/d4UMCfWofVw

[Aurida]

You should stop treating hardcore players like they are some upper class, super secretive, super hateful, super snobby group of people that want everything to themselves.

Yes, quite, hence why this post has now reached 400+ replies, most of them arguing for content that the average layman cannot approach.

Casuals and hardcores deserve content. By that, I mean, there should be a bubble for casuals....and a bubble for hardcores. Stop trying to lump them together in the same bubble. That’s ridiculous.

Exactly what we needed as part of Ishgard content. Class war PvP.

Well, you are very correct about two things in particular- both that we can never see one another's viewpoint, and that we shall see what happens come 5.2. Personally I'm hoping that it indeed is something that actually forces me to pick up Manipulation on my crafting classes so I don't have to keep writing my own macros that don't use it just because I'm too lazy to do the class quests but keep succeeding at crafting anyway.

[CookiesNCreams]

I mean, so long as both parties get content, things will definitely improve on SE’s subscription sales end. While in the process, satisfying players. They’d probably notice a huge spike in subscriptions due to so many hardcore players ending their subs back in 4.0 when crafting got too easy.

Whether it be Ishgard or endgame recipes, we don’t care. We just want content, and fun rewards to motivate us to compete with each other on said content. Like, some tools and gear (not glam) only obtainable by the server’s top 5 crafters per week. (Or month. More likely to be weekly) And if the rewards are indeed glam, they have to be super lewd 2B butt style glams, or nobody will really care to compete for them lol.

@cookiesncream lol Sorry I you saw mention cheese in your post to Aurida and now I want some gouda

I want cookie dough. :P

[Liam_Harper]

That's basically the entire crux of the argument, yeah. "This thing should be pointlessly and frustratingly difficult to gate people who aren't as dedicated and as hardcore as I am out of it; this way, when people like me do throw themselves at it for long enough, then it's impressive when we complete it, and then I and people like me can hold its related subsystems hostage."

It has nothing to do with gating you out. We simply enjoy it. You see it as tedious, we see it as satisfying when you put a lot of effort and patience into something.

Sorry, it's the 'selfish mindset' that everyone should be able to participate equally in the content rather than just a dedicated few? That's the 'selfish mindset' we're discussing here?

Exactly. It's not about participation, it's about fun. The casual player wants all crafting content to the type of content they find fun. The hardcore wants a tiny fraction of the crafting content to cater to their idea of fun and casual players can have the other 98%. Who's being selfish here?

[Aurida]

The hardcore wants a tiny fraction of the crafting content to cater to their idea of fun and casual players can have the other 98%. Who's being selfish here?

Well it is a bit disingenuous when historically (pre-SB, like everyone seems to wish for) that that 2% has been the 100% of items in the game that are actually useful to craft...

[AbelArchaniEA]

SE, come on, guys. Ever since Stormblood began, you added Prudent Touch. Which has made crafting far too easy. What it does, is removes 2.0 - 3.5’s RNG completely. That’s great, it means crafting isn’t so annoying anymore. Here’s the problem with that, though. Ever since that RNG problem has been fixed, players who enjoy a challenge like myself, are basically denied that challenge.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe there are crafters out there that actually enjoyed 2.0 - 3.5’s RNG? Because, it helps us become better crafters, and it feels incredibly rewarding to know that you HQ’d a craft that tries to flip you off with RNG. It’s SO rewarding. Not only that, but it raises the value of your time spent per craft. Back then, crafts took 2 minutes per rotation. (makers mark and hasty touch)

Now? 40 seconds - 1 minute. In a single macro. A. Single. Macro. I kid you not. One. Macro. Square Enix, do you not see the problem with this? What were you thinking? I understand you need to cater to casual players that don’t take crafting very seriously, but it’s very insulting to completely flip off your hardcore players, and refuse to give us challenging recipes with great rewards. Such as high stat gear or tools. We just want a challenge, and we want to be rewarded for that challenge.

And for people who say “B-but Ishgard Restoration will be challenging”...no, it won’t. They tend to hype up things relating to crafting, but when it actually drops, it’s underwhelming. They have a pretty good track record in regards to that, lol.

Stormblood - Prudent Touch
ShadowBringers - Preparatory Touch, Prudent Touch, Delicate Synthesis.

Square Enix, how much easier do you plan on making crafting? How much longer do you plan on ignoring your hardcore players? Eventually, you’ll reach a point where it’s literally impossible to make this any easier.

We aren’t children, you know. We can figure mechanics out.

LMAO the fact you think crafting has a "HARDCORE" history or need is comical. Crafting has never been hardcore.