Removing unnecessary buttons (SCH)

[Dynia]

Seriously, are you a troll?

A) As was said above, SCH has far weaker heals than WHM (I've played both and WHM can recover people's HP so much faster). Our shields aren't our utility. They're the main component of our healing kit.

B) As was also said above, most SCHs want more complex dps, not more effective dps. I'm happy for WHMs to continue to have the biggest numbers. I just want more than 4 dps buttons across my entire kit

C) We don't deserve to play healers... okay. Wow.

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

[Hatstand]

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

More dots does not necessarily equal more dps. Two dots of potency 20 is less dps than one dot of potency 40, due to losing two gcds for it. We're not asking for two dots with the same potency as the dot we have now.

Also, when we say we want more dps buttons, that doesn't mean another button that does the same thing except with a different cost/potency. There can be dps buttons that do other things. I consider Presence of Mind to be a dps button, because (assuming that healing is going well enough that you don't need to use it for healing. Obviously healing gets priority) you can use it to get more dps in. Bane was a dps button and it did something different to all our other buttons (spreading dots provided a tool to get more use out of dots on an enemy that was about to die, for instance). Personally, I'm not looking for a rotation like, say, the one on dancer. I don't want more than one button that essentially does the same thing, but which have to be pressed in a particular order (except that I would like more DoTs, because keeping an eye on the duration of both was an element of complexity that I miss). I want more flexibility in my dps kit, not more power. I also want my job to require more decision making of me. Deciding to use presence of mind for DPS means it isn't available for healing. Deciding to use aetherflow stacks for energy drain means that you won't have that stack for an emergency lustrate. Those kinds of dps skills made the job more interesting to me, and pushed the skill ceiling higher.

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

[Dynia]

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

[Hatstand]

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

Yeah, SCH dps wasn't hard, but it was harder, and more interesting, than it is now. If they wanted to make it better than it was before, I'd have no complaints. And to be clear, when I say I would like things to be harder, I mean I'd like a higher skill ceiling.

Another genuine question: why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure? I know there are a lot of people who think it is, so I'd like to understand why.

The way I see it, there is only so much you can improve your healing: when no one is dying, you just can't do that job any better. I advocate for dps complexity because it means that there's always some way to do your job better (when you've got the healing down, and only then, you can work on optimising dps). I'd be equally happy with some sort of offensive buffing system, so long as it was decently complex and had short enough cooldowns that you could focus on maintaining it whenever there was no healing required. I'd be happy with them increasing the amount of damage incoming, so we had less reason to use our dps kits, but I think we still need to account for the fact that someone could master that harder content, and they should have something to continue to work towards at that point. Ergo the dps (or buffing system) should be there, even if most players will never use it (in group content, anyway. I imagine most would use dps in quests and whatnot).

If you have the time, I'd very much appreciate it if you told me why you think maintaining the purity of the trinity is important, how you think it stacks up against concerns like mine, and whether you can think of any solutions that would resolve my concerns while maintaining what you think is important.

Note: being able to optimise dps doesn't mean the dps has to be very powerful. Just complex enough that it's something you can improve at, and have at least a marginal benefit to your group.

[Dynia]

Another genuine question: why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure? I know there are a lot of people who think it is, so I'd like to understand why.

maybe cause im old and I respect tradition :P ?? nah its not it this time

now image class with:
- plate armor, def stats like paladin
- healing power and skills like WHM
- dps like paladin or WHM what ever here (I can already solo HUNT bosses on map as WHM, its take me like 1 hour to solo them but its possible)

with this class you can selftank and selfheal anything in the game and with enough time you could solo ANY raid

to answer that question that class would be OP, TOO OP / even hybrids with 2 elements are too strong, healer with too big dps is OP too imho (image that class on pvp high healing power and high dps)

what why Holy Trinity exist you are weak in something and strong in something, you can't eat cake and have cake,

that why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure, if you as healer do too much dmg, you away job from your fellow dps budy, its simple to KEEP class BALANCE

I rly wish they make harder dungeons or dungeons hard mode with harder mobs that give more exp and rewards or just M+ from wow :P


EDIT: and one more thing, would you be happy as black mage if your party member healer do same damage as you in raid ? (for example you and he do 10k dmg in the end to raid boss)
(yes yes yes, I know this game have DPS check on a lot of bosses ^^)

[Hatstand]

maybe cause im old and I respect tradition :P ?? nah its not it this time

now image class with:
- plate armor, def stats like paladin
- healing power and skills like WHM
- dps like paladin or WHM what ever here (I can already solo HUNT bosses on map as WHM, its take me like 1 hour to solo them but its possible)

with this class you can selftank and selfheal anything in the game and with enough time you could solo ANY raid

to answer that question that class would be OP, TOO OP / even hybrids with 2 elements are too strong, healer with too big dps is OP too imho (image that class on pvp high healing power and high dps)

what why Holy Trinity exist you are weak in something and strong in something, you can't eat cake and have cake,

that why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure, if you as healer do too much dmg, you away job from your fellow dps budy, its simple to KEEP class BALANCE

I rly wish they make harder dungeons or dungeons hard mode with harder mobs that give more exp and rewards or just M+ from wow :P


EDIT: and one more thing, would you be happy as black mage if your party member healer do same damage as you in raid ? (for example you and he do 10k dmg in the end to raid boss)
(yes yes yes, I know this game have DPS check on a lot of bosses ^^)

I see what you're saying, but I still think that both of us could be happy if we detach how interesting something is to do from how effective it is. If I was a BLM I wouldn't want the WHM to be able to do the same amount of damage I was while also healing (because then BLM would feel redundant), but I don't think that's entirely relevant. Let's say, for example, that a healer's dps contribution ranged from 0-5% of total raid dps. They'd still be well behind the DPS classes in terms of damage output, but striving to go from that 0 to that 5 could be an extra layer of challenge for the healer, once they'd mastered the healing (Maybe the best healers could even try to push themselves to 7%!). Making the means by which that dps was achieved more interesting would make the role more satisfying to play, without having any significant mechanical effect. Plus, since healer dps wouldn't be so important to the overall dps it wouldn't matter if some people struggled a bit to optimise it. So long as their healing was manageable they'd be able to do their job just fine.

You also didn't comment on the idea of adding buffs. I think that adding aoe buffs could make balance difficult, but single target buffs could be easier to balance.

(Ofc, all this is only considering group content. I'd like to see healers with enough dps out of group content to get their MSQ done in reasonable time. If you didn't want healers dpsing in group content you could have these skills morph into buffing skills when in group content)

Edit: some math- if all healers and tanks were doing around 5% of raid damage, they'd be doing less than half of what the average dps was putting out. I think that's a big enough disparity to avoid stepping on dps toes.

[Takahiro]

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

SCH in SB had already started the path towards being nerfed. Looked at videos of 2.0 or 3.0 SCH. This is what we want back. The dots, You were able to do about the DPS of a PLD (Worst dps of 3.0 of all tanks) and still continue healing just fine. Seeing as most of your DPS came from Dots, you could go back to healing directly after.

Please stop with the elitism and condescending tones. Im 29 years old. Iv been playing MMOs and games since I was 10. My first ever MMORPG was Tibia Online. Old School RPGs have their place, but this is FFXIV and, frankly, the old School RPG method of "Healers only Heal" is boring. It was exciting when I was a kid, but as I get older, I want something harder and that was what SCH was. It wasnt a brain dead "Just spam Cure and Holy trinity" type job, but one you actually had to consider if you wanted to be good at it. It was a "Easy to understand, hard to master" type job in 3.0. Ever since Stormblood, SE has been hellbent on making us WHM Lites and, I cant speak for everyone, thats not what us SCHs ever wanted.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Please stop with the elitism and condescending tones. Im 29 years old. Iv been playing MMOs and games since I was 10. My first ever MMORPG was Tibia Online. Old School RPGs have their place, but this is FFXIV and, frankly, the old School RPG method of "Healers only Heal" is boring.

Also, as I've pointed out, that statement about old school MMO's is wrong. Both Everquest and WoW era MMO's had healers that could add DPS and/or healer-hybrids of some variety.

Where pure healers did work, usually the strategic and tactical dimensions of healing were a lot more involved than FF14. Frankly, FF14's fights tend to be much shallower on challenge that derives directly from interaction with job kits than a lot of MMO's (look at how many WoW era healers have kit synergies, whereas FF14 had little intra-kit synergy to begin with and has eroded inter-kit synergy between healers over time), and far more focused on positioning and movement.

[Hatstand]

As for me calling you a troll, I didn't wonder that because you disagree with me. I suspected that because a) you didn't seem to have read the things other SCH advocates have said (or perhaps you just misunderstood what was meant), which makes it seem like you're not arguing in good faith and b) calling your opponent a liar reduces the discussion to a name slinging fight, rather than a real debate. I am also guilty of this, so I apologize for that.

P.S. The reason I don't play a DPS instead is because I love the reactivity that is required to play a healer. Watching the health bars and making sure everyone stays up is my favorite part of the role. That doesn't mean I can't also enjoy the other parts of my role. The reason I'm complaining exclusively about the dps is that the healing still feels good.

[Alistaire]

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

It's not because your opinion is different; it's because you're clearly ignoring how this game works. What's next: take away dps from tanks? 6.0 "all tank abilities now result in threat management only. If you wanted to dps you should play a dps job". smh