How tanking feels post ShB patch

[Bobzitto]

Post patch I, me, the person typing this, feel like I'm doing something wrong when I play a tank.

I feel like I'm not doing anything to control mob hate.

It makes me feel like I'm being a bad tank, even though I'm holding hate perfectly fine.

It makes me feel like I'm being a lazy tank.

It makes me feel like I'm presenting no skill what so ever at tanking.

This and what you posted afterwards really makes me wonder if you actually see tanking as anything other than holding aggro. Having an easy time holding it and thinking it makes you feel lazy/bad/skilless is akin to a DPS complaining that it's easy to do good dps on a simple rotation. The difference being that generating DPS is their main job while generating aggro shouldn't be (and now isn't) our main concern. It is no measure of your tanking skill as a DPS's numbers is theirs. Perhaps it is the fact that I come from tanking on other games, but I've never played one where tanks have no trouble enmity and complain about it. It gives you the chance to focus more on mechanics and positioning and yes, your own personal DPS. Because in the end it does matter, and might as well save you from a wipe due to enrage or w/e.

As for the differences between tanking classes, even as a fairly new player I can clearly see them without having to go through the balancing hell of actually making them contribute less or more DPS. All this would make is every tank have to play the bunker, self-sustaining class on the first week of new content, and then switch to the more DPS focused one when they're better geared and don't need to worry about surviving as much. The differences are already there, in their playstyle, and some of the cooldowns and usage. Like how the GNB, unlike other tanks, is much more focused in smoothing out damage spikes instead of having big heals or CDs to recover from low HP to full.

[Dalmacus]

That's what i felt after entering the first 5.0 dungeon. It does feel abit like i'm a DPS albeit lesser damage numbers. I still have the habit of glancing over the emnity bar to check once and alwhile but now i totally stopped looking at it and kinda feel it's a useless mechanic now. IMO, I think they toned down tanking difficulty too much. Prior to 5.0 at least players have to know what emnity opener they need to do before they start to DPS but now you just hit any gap closer button and bam emnity generated higher than anyone.

[Valmarus]

This and what you posted afterwards really makes me wonder if you actually see tanking as anything other than holding aggro. Having an easy time holding it and thinking it makes you feel lazy/bad/skilless is akin to a DPS complaining that it's easy to do good dps on a simple rotation. The difference being that generating DPS is their main job while generating aggro shouldn't be (and now isn't) our main concern. It is no measure of your tanking skill as a DPS's numbers is theirs. Perhaps it is the fact that I come from tanking on other games, but I've never played one where tanks have no trouble enmity and complain about it. It gives you the chance to focus more on mechanics and positioning and yes, your own personal DPS. Because in the end it does matter, and might as well save you from a wipe due to enrage or w/e..

I guess that's where the difference lies. I've come from MMOs (Mostly FFXI but other MMOs also) where the exact opposite is true. Actually holding the hate of the mob actually took some skill and wasn't some mechanic that for all intents and purposes may as well no longer exist. Where DPS had to manage hate and back off damage from time to time rather than mindlessly go full out. Games where healers can quite easily top the hate list if too much damage is taken by people. Hell in FFXI we even had a non-tanking class whos primary function was to control hate (thief could add hate to tank and take it away from others). That whole dance around emnity control is what makes tanking feel different (to me). There was skill and thought that went into the actual holding the mob. And with out that it just doesn't feel like I'm tanking. And don't give me "this isn't FFXI " it's also not any other MMO where hate management isn't a thing and though it started out with stupid easy hate management it still started with hate management.

That's what i felt after entering the first 5.0 dungeon. It does feel abit like i'm a DPS albeit lesser damage numbers. I still have the habit of glancing over the emnity bar to check once and alwhile but now i totally stopped looking at it and kinda feel it's a useless mechanic now. IMO, I think they toned down tanking difficulty too much. Prior to 5.0 at least players have to know what emnity opener they need to do before they start to DPS but now you just hit any gap closer button and bam emnity generated higher than anyone.

Glad to see I'm not the only one this has thrown off. I've always thought tanking difficulty in this game was too toned down even at release. Even before this update however I still saw tanks who completely ignored their hate rotations in level 50 or lower dungeons and the mobs just ran wild. And I think you've hit the crux of it there, now that's gone I haven't been noticing "bad tanks". And I agree it's a useless mechanic now. I feel that everything is now a focus on roles andthat at this point we may as well just have the monster automatically main target anybody with the tank role.

[Physic]

This and what you posted afterwards really makes me wonder if you actually see tanking as anything other than holding aggro. Having an easy time holding it and thinking it makes you feel lazy/bad/skilless is akin to a DPS complaining that it's easy to do good dps on a simple rotation. The difference being that generating DPS is their main job while generating aggro shouldn't be (and now isn't) our main concern. It is no measure of your tanking skill as a DPS's numbers is theirs. Perhaps it is the fact that I come from tanking on other games, but I've never played one where tanks have no trouble enmity and complain about it. It gives you the chance to focus more on mechanics and positioning and yes, your own personal DPS. Because in the end it does matter, and might as well save you from a wipe due to enrage or w/e.

As for the differences between tanking classes, even as a fairly new player I can clearly see them without having to go through the balancing hell of actually making them contribute less or more DPS. All this would make is every tank have to play the bunker, self-sustaining class on the first week of new content, and then switch to the more DPS focused one when they're better geared and don't need to worry about surviving as much. The differences are already there, in their playstyle, and some of the cooldowns and usage. Like how the GNB, unlike other tanks, is much more focused in smoothing out damage spikes instead of having big heals or CDs to recover from low HP to full.

every one has to worry about positioning and mechanics. The fact that most of your focus is on dps shows that mitigation and control is not the focus of the job. Tanking is generally focused on mitigation and control in most games. in this one, it's mostly dps. Every game can design things however they want, and most tanks here seem happy with that concept, but their argument isn't a crazy one. The measure of a tank here isn't how well they can hold hate, or how much they can mitigate, or how well they control the mobs. that's true even by your standards.

How would you define an excellent tank in this game?

[Bobzitto]

In THIS game? Without having reached the endgame, it's hard for me to comment. But from my experience in other games, you'll never notice a tank is doing an excellent job if you're playing a DPS. Only if you're the other tank and if you're a healer. You will, however, notice they're doing a bad job due to poor positioning or using their tools the wrong way (like the 30% DR CD after a big hit and not before, or a GNB using Superbolide when they're with over half health against trash pulls).

And I never said that tanks' focus is on DPS. I said it is a contributing factor to the group and should be paid attention to. When I tank here, my focus is still on my cooldowns and the things going on around me. Seeing what I have up and what is close to coming off cooldown so I can dictate the pace of the pulls. The thing with you and Valmarus is you're trying to apply something that is no longer true (if it ever were) to FFXIV today. Saying you have no control over how good or bad you're doing as a tank because you no longer have to struggle with enmity. There is nothing to have control over anymore. If you want to, turn your tank stance off and have fun with the hate you'll receive from your party.

[Valmarus]

You've basically just summed up what I was saying. They've got rid of what makes a tank feel like a tank to me and now makes me feel like I'm playing a dps. The only thing that changes between playing a tank and a DPS now is what specific telegraphs and abilities i'm watching for on the cast bar, which isn't really a change because that changes fight to fight anyway.

[Physic]

In THIS game? Without having reached the endgame, it's hard for me to comment. But from my experience in other games, you'll never notice a tank is doing an excellent job if you're playing a DPS. Only if you're the other tank and if you're a healer. You will, however, notice they're doing a bad job due to poor positioning or using their tools the wrong way (like the 30% DR CD after a big hit and not before, or a GNB using Superbolide when they're with over half health against trash pulls).

And I never said that tanks' focus is on DPS. I said it is a contributing factor to the group and should be paid attention to. When I tank here, my focus is still on my cooldowns and the things going on around me. Seeing what I have up and what is close to coming off cooldown so I can dictate the pace of the pulls. The thing with you and Valmarus is you're trying to apply something that is no longer true (if it ever were) to FFXIV today. Saying you have no control over how good or bad you're doing as a tank because you no longer have to struggle with enmity. There is nothing to have control over anymore. If you want to, turn your tank stance off and have fun with the hate you'll receive from your party.

so by your definition, an excellent tank doesn't get others killed by pointing cones at them, and manages 3-5 90-120 second cool down skills. And the rest of the time they dps. I would say that means 80 % of the actions they take are about maintaining dps.

this is fine, apparently dps is more entertaining than control or mitigation, Or rather, the tanks of this game prefer to be a dps with the responsibility of leading the group, rather than a class whose gameplay focus is control/mitigation. But then its not crazy for some players to feel like a tank is basically dps who the monsters must target, and a passive mitigation tool.

think qbout how this is different than healers who literally spend 50-80% of their time actively preventing or recovering dmg. Even if a healer had the same max dps as a dps, they would still mostly press buttons that heal people.

look, i personally have no problem with tanks basically being the dps that monsters hit, it adds an extra layer to dps combat. When i played eureka on my monk, and took the logoram that increased defense, and the skill that inceased enmity per action, it was more entertaining tanking to me than my warrior. But that made me realize tanking in this game is not so much a gameplay choice/style, as much as a designation of whose going to get hit most the time.

[Bobzitto]

From what I understand (wasn't here, wouldn't know), tanks before had to switch between stances to build aggro and then switch to DPS when they had enough. Then switch back to "tank stance" when DPS was catching up. That's...not better design. That's busywork. They could make things more interesting and active for tanks if they changed things around, but threat/enmity/hate is deff not the way to do it.

[Valmarus]

From what I understand (wasn't here, wouldn't know), tanks before had to switch between stances to build aggro and then switch to DPS when they had enough. Then switch back to "tank stance" when DPS was catching up. That's...not better design. That's busywork. They could make things more interesting and active for tanks if they changed things around, but threat/enmity/hate is deff not the way to do it.

Except some people got into tanking BECAUSE they enjoy that whole hate management thing. And intially the game had hate management for tanks. And the tanks I've always known their complaint was always that holding that hate was too easy, something I've always agreed with. It hasn't always been the case that tanks focused on DPS, and in truth, tank DPSing was actually born from what people regarded at the time as pretty terrible endgame mechanics. It was the only way around those mechanics because you couldn't outgear them.

Not wanting to stance dance, not wanting to maintain emnity, that's the mindset of a lazy tank. It seems the vocal tanks on this forum want less meaningful things to do. I would argue that hate management, if it existed in a proper form, which it used to (albeit too easy) is much more meaningful to an encounter than DPS. There's 4-6 other people in the party, never mind the alliance, that can throw out DPS, but only you can control the mob. Except you don't now, the game does it for you. The key there in my opinion would have been to take focus off tank damage and more on the hate management. Rather than something born from a "kill this quickly of you automatically die" mechanic. And again so many people are missing the point.

This isn't about whather that was the correct decision or not. This isn't about what people think is the core function of a tank is (and [this isn't aimed at the quoted author] regardless of whether they agree over the core function of a tank is no grounds for people to talk down to others like they have been in this thread. Again, you know who you are, you just look foolish for missing the entire point).

The entire point of this thread was to see if anybody else felt like the removal of hate mechanics all together made playing a tank feel odd to them. And interestingly someone gave an interesting answer that said it did but for different reasons than me who feels that the new rotations make me feel like a lazy tank. Like I'm screwing up soemhow even though I'm not. I feel like I'm treating a tank as a DD and that's because I am, regardless of what skills I'm popping to mitigate damage, which is something a blm, a dps, has to do anyway.

[msoltyspl]

The entire point of this thread was to see if anybody else felt like the removal of hate mechanics all together made playing a tank feel odd to them.

It does, and enmity management should be the part of the game - though more in the hand of the tank than of dps (not that they had much tools, besides one long CD skill). Alas, instead of improving on that part of the gameplay, they gutted it out completely. Threat multiplier from threat toggle now is so big you can do nearly nothing at all. Looking at actual enmity values one can wonder "really devs ? wtf guys". Tanks now are literally poor man's dpses with mob(s) glued to them. So the only remaining funs are swapping/positioning/CDs - which are few and far between during encounters. With provoke giving us chunk of enmity on top one can wonder, what's even the point of shirke now (outside of trolling). TBH one of the more funny parts is well done wall-to-wall trash pull now. There is something sexy about healing your healer with nascent flash =)

OTOH, the reality of at least 4.x content was that no one gave a fuck about the mystical stance dancing - tanks shirked each other's ass from time to time and did openers in tank stance. Very rarely you saw tank actually going back to tank stance.

Compared to what SE did to healers (SCH especially) though .... one could say we are not in that bad position. Though ..... you can see what kind of japanese part of playerbase they are listening to (if listening to anyone at all).