Changes to Meditation, Tornado Kick, and Other Actions for 5.0 Monk

[Kazer]

I understand the reasoning and technicality of what you're trying to do but I still dont recommend it. The key difference here is wind tackle gave an instant GL stack in an off global state. SSS into Anatman after TK causes you to lose two GL4 buffed globals, a properly timed fully buffed demo refresh, and possibly up to two auto attacks.

If we give you the best case scenario where you refreshed demo the cycle before the TS/True that leads into the TK > Snap > SSS (Anatman), it just does not add up. I only did some quick napkin math but if you add up the potencies leading up to the demo refresh which will happen 3 gcd after your SSS downtime (dont forget the damage bonus from GL stacks on each attack) yours falls short.

Not only would you possibly miss two auto attacks under GL4 (you cant auto attack during anatman) your demo refresh there would be under GL2 instead of GL3/4 which is a loss. We can say a different scenario but then you would refresh demo where? After the TK would be bad and having to do a later refresh again to overwrite it when you maybe reach GL 3 again would still fall short. Now my math may not be 100% as it was done quickly, but the weaker demo refresh and the two possible GL4 buffed gcd & autos missed closes the gap of throwing the TK out there.

This just is not recommended to do right now unless we get a different skill that gives us an instant GL stack or a big maybe, if anatman always gave a stack instantly, then you would secure 2 stacks during the SSS before your gcd was ready again.

[samurailargo]

I personally want to see a riddle of wind, which under FoF or FoE would grant 30s of GL4 or under FoW let tornado kick used for free. Making fist switching more of a choice than a requirement.

[Oxdarock]

I understand the reasoning and technicality of what you're trying to do but I still dont recommend it. The key difference here is wind tackle gave an instant GL stack. SSS into Anatman after TK causes you to lose two GL4 buffed globals, a properly timed fully buffed demo refresh, and possibly up to two auto attacks.

If we give you the best case scenario where you refreshed demo the cycle before the TS/True that leads into the TK > Snap > SSS (Anatman), it just does not add up. I only did some quick napkin math but if you add up the potencies leading up to the demo refresh which will happen 3 gcd after your SSS downtime (dont forget the damage bonus from GL stacks on each attack) yours falls short.

Not only would you possibly miss two auto attacks under GL4 (you cant auto attack during anatman) your demo refresh there would be under GL2 instead of GL3/4 which is a loss. We can say a different scenario but then you would refresh demo where? After the TK would be bad and having to do a later refresh again to overwrite it when you maybe reach GL 3 again would still fall short. Now my math may not be 100% as it was done quickly, but the weaker demo refresh and the two possible GL4 buffed gcd & autos missed closes the gap of throwing the TK out there.

This just is not recommended to do right now unless we get a different skill that gives us an instant GL stack or a big maybe, if anatman always gave a stack instantly, then you would secure 2 stacks during the SSS before your gcd was ready again.

Using TK in general involves risk, even during SB. I still had those same issues of not getting demo under all the GL buffs back then since every situation wasn't ideal. Hell, even with this scenario, before we even get to a buffed demo, I know for a fact that you'll only get a LF Boot under GL2 very often. And I've actually had the chance to recently test the numbers and yes, if the 6SS+TK hits normally, it just barely fills in the gap from the 6SS+Anatman, meaning for there to be any kind of dps increase, the first combo needs crit/dh procs. That said, I've yet to test the numbers when using that same combo at the end of a RoF window, which would cause both moves to hit much harder even without the crit/dh procs (not to mention, that's one of the only times you were supposed to use TK in SB anyway). Essentially, the key to this is for 6SS+TK to hit as hard as possible for it to be any kind of gain, which has always been the case.

[Oxdarock]

I personally want to see a riddle of wind, which under FoF or FoE would grant 30s of GL4 or under FoW let tornado kick used for free. Making fist switching more of a choice than a requirement.

Huh. Not a bad idea, considering class mechanics like that exist. (A.K.A DRKs TBN).

[Carstien]

Didn't you say you didn't want to tie your logs to your rotation because it would remove your credibility. That's a huge red flag, even you know this TK rotation is a dumpster fire when it comes to actually performing well, and with all the luck in the world and perfect timing you'll at best break even with the actual, optimal rotation. I don't mind you doing this, you do you, but spreading misinformation and hooking other players into this nonsense is just horrific. Why would you do that?

[Oxdarock]

Didn't you say you didn't want to tie your logs to your rotation because it would remove your credibility. That's a huge red flag, even you know this TK rotation is a dumpster fire when it comes to actually performing well, and with all the luck in the world and perfect timing you'll at best break even with the actual, optimal rotation. I don't mind you doing this, you do you, but spreading misinformation and hooking other players into this nonsense is just horrific. Why would you do that?

The reason I didn't attach logs is because I don't really care about parse runs for relatively casual content (i.e EX trials and normal raids). I don't use any food or pots, and have only melded my gear with level 6 Materia. I'm even still running around with 430 boots. I'm saving all of those important resources for Savage content.

Another reason is because most people generally don't take the time to break logs down bit by bit. I'm honestly never even remotely impressed with high parses as the first thing I look at is party comp and buffs and sure enough, those high parses are padded. Thankfully, fflogs has a handy feature that shows raid dps, which you can use to find out a person's actual dps if you take away all the raid buffs.

I can admit to the rotation having a lot of flaws in the beginning when I first posted the TK guide. All the change logs say as much. However, I state in the beginning very clearly that a lot of my conclusions are based on simple calculations and that people with better tools should experiment to see how the rotation works out. I'd probably have been able to find all the problems in the beginning if I had tools to do so, however my options are limited as I play on a PS4. I also can't even remotely compare my rotation to others to see how it can be improved when a majority of people are just spamming the same 6 GCDs over and over, so I couldn't tell where the best place to use 6SS+TK would be or how many stacks I should gain when using 6SS+Anatman. I probably should have tried asking someone to help parse my rotation sooner, but it's pretty inconvenient to rip someone away for who knows how long to try a different rotation when there's an entire community just spamming the same 6 GCDs.

I apologize if this sounds whiny, but after two weeks since posting this guide, I've gotten a few people tell me "No, no, this won't work, no!" over and over, but never once has anyone tried it out and experimented to see what the flaws are, and gotten back to me on ways it could be improved. It's just been me going in, playing the game, trying out the rotation, figuring out what feels off and what could work better, and then updating what I've written so that the info is there for people to try out and experiment with. But when a majority of people don't want to try experimenting and would rather leave it up to a handful of people who find one way and stick to it, there's not much in the way of improving or making the class more fun to play.

[Carstien]

People have already done the math though, you were told it doesn't work. I applaud your attempts to inject TK back into a viable rotation but the truth of it is, it doesn't work. You really think people haven't tried to fit it in? You think you're the only one? People with all those tools you're missing have tried, have looked over the data and concluded it's a no go with current monk. Oh, and despite what you say your reason is, me saying you didn't add them because of credibility is a direct quote from you. It's what you said. Don't backtrack.

[Oxdarock]

Seems like we'll have to wait till 5.1 or 5.2 for SE to fix the issues with monk and the rest of the classes, lol. I really like a lot of the changes though. RoF is really good now and RoE is just amazing. The only one that I don't like is the GL refresh on Form Shift.

This change is clearly a poorly applied band-aid to the legions of players complaining about monk. It's only ever good in dungeons and honestly, I find it rather annoying that I have to spam form shift over and over. The more problematic thing about the Form Shift GL Refresh is that it completely shafted the GL refresh of RoE and Anatman, let alone 6SS. It can also trick people into not using TK in situations where it would be a dps gain (a prime example of this is E1 right before the add phase. The time it takes for the adds to hit the ground is so long that you can gain 3 or 4 stacks of GL with Anatman before you have to move). People might not like me for saying this, but I really hope SE removes Form Shifts GL refresh in future patches. I know making the class more fun for casual players is important, but from what I've seen with monk suggestions, people just don't want to deal with the intricacies of the class (even after SE made it a lot easier to keep up GL) and just want it to play like other classes while still keeping its crazy damage.

On another note, after messing with the class more and updating my 5.0 TK Rotation guide, I think the only real change SE needs to make to monk (besides getting rid of Form Shift's GL refresh) is to have 6SS give a stack of GL and for Meditation to be except from the 6SS CD timer. Add those and the class is solid.

[SpeckledBurd]

Seems like we'll have to wait till 5.1 or 5.2 for SE to fix the issues with monk and the rest of the classes, lol. I really like a lot of the changes though. RoF is really good now and RoE is just amazing. The only one that I don't like is the GL refresh on Form Shift.

This change is clearly a poorly applied band-aid to the legions of players complaining about monk. It's only ever good in dungeons and honestly, I find it rather annoying that I have to spam form shift over and over. The more problematic thing about the Form Shift GL Refresh is that it completely shafted the GL refresh of RoE and Anatman, let alone 6SS. It can also trick people into not using TK in situations where it would be a dps gain (a prime example of this is E1 right before the add phase. The time it takes for the adds to hit the ground is so long that you can gain 3 or 4 stacks of GL with Anatman before you have to move). People might not like me for saying this, but I really hope SE removes Form Shifts GL refresh in future patches. I know making the class more fun for casual players is important, but from what I've seen with monk suggestions, people just don't want to deal with the intricacies of the class (even after SE made it a lot easier to keep up GL) and just want it to play like other classes while still keeping its crazy damage.

On another note, after messing with the class more and updating my 5.0 TK Rotation guide, I think the only real change SE needs to make to monk (besides getting rid of Form Shift's GL refresh) is to have 6SS give a stack of GL and for Meditation to be except from the 6SS CD timer. Add those and the class is solid.

The Formshift change is one of the best changes Monk has ever received and if they had made the change going into Shadowbringers, redundant skills like Anatman wouldn’t have been implemented, Riddle of Earth could have been pruned or reworked into something a little less OP than a 30 second true North, and Six Sided Star could have had a different design instead of a 5th niche Greased Lightning management skill. TK’s use case hasn’t changed and anyone with the awareness to Formshift during down phases where they have control will have the awareness to at least try and TK before phases where they don’t.

Form Shift is unequivocally a good change, it gives Monk the basic buff upkeep ability other jobs have and it should be the foundation for reworking the rest of its kit.

[silverdragontyr]

They can't undo the form shift change now. It simply can't happen 90% of Mnk's will riot. It's what Mnk has needed for a long time. The simple fact is TK is almost never useful. Unless it gets a massive potency buff, destroying your 20% attack buff will never be a good trade off for a skill that does only slightly more than a majority of your attacks. The investment to build GL is simply too great. The only time it is useful is when you're ending a fight or there is a transition will you physically can not move for more then 15 seconds.

Mnk does need more to do but I would hope they would get more creative with it. Some ideas is changing weaponskills or giving bonus attacks based off weaponskill order creating combo attacks for different situations. I think this would be in the right direction to not focus on a constant build/break of GL, and still make Mnk feel fast and unique. It's likely at this point SSS and Anatman will be changed or replaced in a later update.