Differences between English and Japanese MSQ Dialogue (bit of a rant)

[DumdogsWorld]

... you.. really gonna go with the porn comparison.. for kids cartoons reaching wider audiences?

"When in a debate, attack the premise, not the arguments."

Dragon Ball is not a cartoon for kids, hence why I made the comparison. This has nothing to do with taboos. Japanese 'cartoons' very much resemble western cartoons - they are much more juvenile. It may have been intended for teens, but teens are not kids.

[Krotoan]

"When in a debate, attack the premise, not the arguments."

Dragon Ball is not a cartoon for kids, hence why I made the comparison. This has nothing to do with taboos. Japanese 'cartoons' very much resemble western cartoons - they are much more juvenile. It may have been intended for teens, but teens are not kids.

Your argument is "well if we could make the audience for PORN bigger it'd make more money." well... yeah, but.. morals? How does this compare equally to swapping out a jelly doughnut for a rice ball like the original comparison? This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

Ask a Japanese person if dragonball is a kids cartoon. In my experience most of them consider it pre-teenage to teenager content. Kids. Maybe my definition of kids is too broad, but I remember watching DBZ when I was 10-ish along with all my elementary school friends. It's not like it was an entirely different thing than dragonball either, Goku is just bigger.

[DumdogsWorld]

This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

You don't consider changing a story morally bad? What if the audience wants to see it as it appears originally? Why do these dubbing companies feel like it's up to them to decide that?

Yes, as you've pointed out, I'm not a businessman. But when I see something different than the writers/author/etc originally intended, I get really annoyed. If I don't know what a rice ball is, I'll look it up. I don't need to be treated like an idiot.

If you can't understand that...well...oh well...

[Krotoan]

You don't consider changing a story morally bad? What if the audience wants to see it as it appears originally? Why do these dubbing companies feel like it's up to them to decide that?

Yes, as you've pointed out, I'm not a businessman. But when I see something different than the writers/author/etc originally intended, I get really annoyed. If I don't know what a rice ball is, I'll look it up. I don't need to be treated like an idiot.

If you can't understand that...well...oh well...

So you are figuring you know that the authors HAD to have that be a riceball and they weren't just using it because it was their cultural norm and if it can interchangeably be used with something else and convey the same meaning or implication it still should be kept as something that might confuse a foreign audience because "dangit people should have to research to enjoy cartoons"?

Changing a story to make it more relatable exposes more people to the story in the first place. Once interested people can (and will) go search out the "original" version, something they wouldn't even have engaged in if they experienced something confusing or unfamiliar.

I don't consider the moral weight of changing a cartoon to cater to local audiences on the same level as having porn cater to underage people. no.

Well..... There IS a big difference between Dragonball and Dragonball Z if i am allowed to interfere here While the original Dragonball was all about fun and being intentended as "Gag-Anime", Dragonball Z took a sudden change to way more sirious topics. Suddenly there where hole citys or even the planet distroyed and a lot of people die.

People still died in DB. They even explored the fact that Goku killed his own adoptive parent. They showed Goku ripping through and killing people, people having limbs broken and suffering greatly on screen. They had nudity and perversion allusions. While the newer threats did increase the possible damage it was more because of the insane power creep necessary to keep them a relevant threat than it being more "grown up". I would argue that content wise Z is no "worse" than the original.

[DumdogsWorld]

So you are figuring you know that the authors HAD to have that be a riceball and they weren't just using it...

That's the whole point - we don't know. That's not up to you, me, or the localization team to decide. That's the author's job.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Good night. We're done here.

I don't consider the moral weight of changing a cartoon to cater to local audiences on the same level as having porn cater to underage people. no.

It was a hyperbole. Hyperbole means to stretch the truth for purposes of demonstrating a point.

Yes, it was a stretch. However, that is the direction your logic is heading. We shouldn't be changing the target audience.

[Krotoan]

That's the whole point - we don't know. That's not up to you, me, or the localization team to decide. That's the author's job.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Good night. We're done here.

.. I'm not done though.
It is up to the localization team to do their research on what might be confusing for the people watching a CARTOON who don't want to go google stuff to understand it. It's a TV show and I'm relatively sure everyone doesn't want to have to research stuff in the middle of it or even after it. I cannot imagine how much more stressful authors jobs would be if they had to consider every single possible audience when writing a story.

It was a hyperbole. Hyperbole means to stretch the truth for purposes of demonstrating a point.

Yes, it was a stretch. However, that is the direction your logic is heading. We shouldn't be changing the target audience.

That is not the direction my logic was heading you made an incorrect assumption and a false comparison. Broadening the target audience ,as in making it accessible to people not from the specific region it was from can only help a show/game/story. It doesn't delete the original, it doesn't lessen it's message, it just lets more people get involved in it. To what degree they wish to explore it is up to them. If you believe in purity of message and story then watch the originals and learn the language and culture.

[IttyBitty]

That's the whole point - we don't know. That's not up to you, me, or the localization team to decide. That's the author's job.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Good night. We're done here.



It was a hyperbole. Hyperbole means to stretch the truth for purposes of demonstrating a point.

Yes, it was a stretch. However, that is the direction your logic is heading. We shouldn't be changing the target audience.

Remember that you are arguing over the narrative significance of a bloody rice ball being changed into a doughnut. Does it actually *change* anything? Does it really impact the artist's "vision"? I'd argue that it really doesn't.

FF4 and FF6 wouldn't be anywhere near as beloved if not for their localisations.

[Exitos]

Your argument is "well if we could make the audience for PORN bigger it'd make more money." well... yeah, but.. morals? How does this compare equally to swapping out a jelly doughnut for a rice ball like the original comparison? This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

Ask a Japanese person if dragonball is a kids cartoon. In my experience most of them consider it pre-teenage to teenager content. Kids. Maybe my definition of kids is too broad, but I remember watching DBZ when I was 10-ish along with all my elementary school friends. It's not like it was an entirely different thing than dragonball either, Goku is just bigger.

Well..... There IS a big difference between Dragonball and Dragonball Z if i am allowed to interfere here While the original Dragonball was all about fun and being intentended as "Gag-Anime", Dragonball Z took a sudden change to way more sirious topics. Suddenly there where hole citys or even the planet distroyed and a lot of people die.

[Enla]

Well..... There IS a big difference between Dragonball and Dragonball Z if i am allowed to interfere here While the original Dragonball was all about fun and being intentended as "Gag-Anime", Dragonball Z took a sudden change to way more sirious topics. Suddenly there where hole citys or even the planet distroyed and a lot of people die.

Still ran in Shonen Jump, which back in 2009 surveyed that most of it's readership was under 14 and specifically targets young boys. Though it also boasts high appeal for elementary and middle school girls as well. (These are a bit older in terms of surveys but the core demographics haven't really shifted from what I can tell.) Dragon Ball Z has always been Shonen. If it was truly meant for older teen/adults it'd be listed as Seinen. I honestly scratch my head at the 'it's not for kids' argument. It's okay to like something that's targeted to people lower than your age, and in different culture at that that has different values and ideas for what is acceptable consumption of media by minors. Stuff like Dragon Ball in particular ave universal appeal that can be enjoyed by all ages. There's no shame in liking it whether you're 5 or 50.

Moving on stuff like what 4kids did is pretty out of the norm and frowned upon these days in the dubbing industry and in fandoms at large. Just look at the flak Netfix got for taking Precure and turning it into Glitter Force. These days as the world turns more towards global awareness most companies strive to bring authentic representations of the media they're adapting to their audiences. Adapt, but don't change beyond the recognizable seems to be the motto.

Edit: I also recommend checking out Mary Cagle's comic about her experiences teaching English in Japan. In one she pretty clearly notes that her elementary students were pretty addicted to watching Attack on Titan.
https://www.marycagle.com/

[Exitos]

Yeah i know its still shonen and for teens around 14 (nevertheless i still like DB and DBZ very much and have the DVD collection at home). Still i feel like there was a strange shift between DB and DBZ where the original was way more childish and based on fun attacks like gokus Rock-Paper-Sissor and stuff while DBZ got a way darker tone to most of the story.