Thoughts on PLD changes

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Lmao no I'm not overthinking nor at a disadvantage if anything you're hindering a pull by using clemency regularly in group content, so, you spamming clemency while the healer is already healing you so now there is most likely over heal (wasted dps potential), healer is now on less mp, you're delaying mobs dying so your CDs run out, and now taking more dmg instead of killing the mobs...clemency is a prog tool nothing more.
Honestly it is insulting to healers when you clemency, let them do their job and heal, if you drop below half hp so what, the healer is allowed to maximise their own dps, while also having a load of oGCD heals when needed, which you'll waste because you can't trust your healer. Further you are really not doing your healer any favours, how is a healer supposed to learn to time their CDs if you're too busy doing their job for them.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Further, holding aggro is a non factor, seriously baffles me when tanks don't make use of their aggro toggles lol like if you have aggro issues now you shouldn't be tanking at all.
Staying alive is covered by CD management. HP values are what healers concern themselves with and judge when you need a heal and when you're fine without a heal, not you. Sure, if you have oGCD stuff like Equilibrium or Aurora why not, but wasting GCDs on healing is pointless unless it's ACTUALLY needed.

[Samuraijake]

bro...they got me hittin clemency while requiscat is up... my hp bar just jumps and it feels so good.... dah hell with dps

[TheForce]

Lmao no I'm not overthinking nor at a disadvantage if anything you're hindering a pull by using clemency regularly in group content, so, you spamming clemency while the healer is already healing you so now there is most likely over heal (wasted dps potential), healer is now on less mp, you're delaying mobs dying so your CDs run out, and now taking more dmg instead of killing the mobs...clemency is a prog tool nothing more.
Honestly it is insulting to healers when you clemency, let them do their job and heal, if you drop below half hp so what, the healer is allowed to maximise their own dps, while also having a load of oGCD heals when needed, which you'll waste because you can't trust your healer. Further you are really not doing your healer any favours, how is a healer supposed to learn to time their CDs if you're too busy doing their job for them.

This post just clearly displays that you are indeed overthinking this, lol. Me popping Clemency instead of DPS'ing for that split second is going to have such a negligible effect on the mob's up time that you wouldn't even notice any difference, especially as a Tank. It's not like I'm sitting there spamming Clemency and doing nothing else, however, I'm not afraid to use it here and there. If anything, the adds would probably be up 1-2 secs more. I can't believe you're really trying to make the argument that by using Clemency I'll actually be at a bigger disadvantage than if I hadn't used it.

I crit ~37k hp on a normal clemency and ~57k hp on a req clemency. The final stragglers of a mob probably wouldn't even hit me for over 15k in 1-2 secs. And alright, if you're comfortable playing recklessly and flirting with death by sitting at low hp when you have the choice to heal yourself, then more power to ya! However, just know that if you get unlucky and end up dying, it is your fault, and in that instance you will have let your grouo down. "Disrespecting the healer"? Dude come on, it's really not that deep! Loosen up Paladin!

[Sqwall]

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

[Shurrikhan]

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

Until/unless you die, I'd generally trust your healer. Especially, oddly enough, the DPS-happy ones. If they're letting your health drop, it's because every point of HP you have left when Bene hits, for instance, is a point of healing wasted. On the other hand, especially in a wall-to-wall pull, the lack of your dps could cost you your life later, when your CDs have run out and not even the strongest Cure II / Lily spam can keep you alive.

[Sqwall]

Until/unless you die, I'd generally trust your healer. Especially, oddly enough, the DPS-happy ones. If they're letting your health drop, it's because every point of HP you have left when Bene hits, for instance, is a point of healing wasted. On the other hand, especially in a wall-to-wall pull, the lack of your dps could cost you your life later, when your CDs have run out and not even the strongest Cure II / Lily spam can keep you alive.

Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

[Booden]

Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

Gonna drop this here, although a tank's DPS doesn't make or break a dungeon run (since there are no dps checks), tanks basically have DPS tier aoe rotations now, as a paladin you almost do as much as a bard on aoe pulls, so it's like adding a third dps to the party. The faster a pull die, the less damage you technically take. You don't HAVE to at all, but it helps.

[Shurrikhan]

Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

It's neither new nor always the case. If you outgear content, or if the content is quite simply lowly tuned, a healer can sustain the full pull even without tank mitigation. But ultimately, the party's DPS (including yours and the healers) will determine whether you still face all the enemies when your and your healer's CDs run dry, or only a part of them (which then acts as a form of mitigation in itself).

Think of it as two competing output rates -- your party's and all the enemies'--and their dynamics over the course of the fight. The more efficiently your party can deal your outputs (healing, damage, or mitigation), moreover, the higher your party's rate. Compared to these changes in outputs over time, your starting HP is of very little difference.

When the fight starts, you deal high damage and have high mitigation, meaning they deal little damage. As the fight progresses--at least until the next set of CDs, which would be well after bonus mitigation has depleted--your party's damage decreases. Meanwhile, your mitigation, likewise, decreases, and the effects any pre-fight HoTs (added rate at start) or shields (added starter HP) would have wear off.

Once your healer is down to Spells (GCDs) alone, not even a WHM can put out even so much as 800 healing potency per GCD (or, some 320 potency per second). And that... may not be enough to deal with all the incoming damage if no mobs have died yet.

• Mitigation should be used when damage intake would be highest (i.e. when most efficient). When working with a WHM, this can take on significant interactions.
• Healing GCDs should be used to provide oGCD weaves or where soon necessary and of greatest strength and/or allowing for the most Ability casts within the fight without any waste, but only where the damage delayed by using those healing GCDs would not have provided more contextually significant mitigation through kills assisted than the earliness of the heals added efficiency through the methods prior methods.
• Damage should be the anchoring priority; one should only stray from damage when doing so indirectly provides... more damage.

[TheForce]

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

Wow, that guy sounds horrible. Honestly, if I was you Sqwall I would've just ignored him and kept doing my thing. If someone's isn't truly harming the group and preventing progression, one should not try and dictate how they play. Even then, some light pointers is really all that's needed.