Thoughts on PLD changes

[Bright-Flower]

For me PLD has gotten better every expansion.

HW gave it dps combos and some neat utility. SB gave it requiscat/clemency, spell blocking etc. And now SHB gives it a real aoe rotation and a couple more buttons for single target. I'll miss shield swipe but I like our gap closer shield charge.

Of the buttons we lost, shield swipe is the only one I really miss.

[MerlinCross]

For me PLD has gotten better every expansion.

HW gave it dps combos and some neat utility. SB gave it requiscat/clemency, spell blocking etc. And now SHB gives it a real aoe rotation and a couple more buttons for single target. I'll miss shield swipe but I like our gap closer shield charge.

Of the buttons we lost, shield swipe is the only one I really miss.

I'm leveling up PLD right now but I don't see how Clemecy being added is a good thing. Not in a game where Deeps is the most important thing. Having to cast that means you're bad or the healer is bad right?

[Shougun]

I'm leveling up PLD right now but I don't see how Clemecy being added is a good thing. Not in a game where Deeps is the most important thing. Having to cast that means you're bad or the healer is bad right?

In general you want to avoid casting it, which is why I hope SE can work in some mechanic later that makes that untrue (just because I like casting it and don't want to have things go bad just to have a reason to use it), but Clemency has saved me in many groups- in tight situations it can mean a lot and now we can drop 5 of them in a row like it's nothing lol.

Also doesn't have to be you or your healer's fault haha, it could be your deeps fault . If you're healer is going on a raise spree, you could give them some back up cures before a mechanic ruins their efforts (or if their mp is dead).

I guess you could be like "but just get a better group then" but I like that Paladin is sort of the job that encourages potential stability and allows people to be human without it all going horribly wrong, maybe that ship could do without one more core post or that extra plating but Paladin is going to put another one there anyways because we don't need no rickety ship .

When using it to bring stability in truly chaotic situations I think it feels really good.

[MerlinCross]

In general you want to avoid casting it, which is why I hope SE can work in some mechanic later that makes that untrue (just because I like casting it and don't want to have things go bad just to have a reason to use it), but Clemency has saved me in many groups- in tight situations it can mean a lot and now we can drop 5 of them in a row like it's nothing lol.

Also doesn't have to be you or your healer's fault haha, it could be your deeps fault . If you're healer is going on a raise spree, you could give them some back up cures before a mechanic ruins their efforts (or if their mp is dead).

I guess you could be like "but just get a better group then" but I like that Paladin is sort of the job that encourages potential stability and allows people to be human without it all going horribly wrong, maybe that ship could do without one more core post or that extra plating but Paladin is going to put another one there anyways because we don't need no rickety ship .

When using it to bring stability in truly chaotic situations I think it feels really good.

Yeah no I don't mind it, that's more a shot at "Everything must be damage" crowd. Besides we need a reliable way of popping Divine Veil in solo content.

Myself, while I just got it and am testing things out, I'm using it when I can't hit the boss for a GCD or so. Either due to it moving, I have to move, boss can't get hit, etc etc. Because during such times as of right now, my own other possible thing is Shield Lob if I can still damage the boss. Holy Spirit might change that later though.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Yeah no I don't mind it, that's more a shot at "Everything must be damage" crowd. Besides we need a reliable way of popping Divine Veil in solo content.

You should realise by this point you do not gain anything from Divine Veil whatsoever, paladin is the only tank not to benefit from it's AoE mitigation, even when DV was first implemented in Heavensward paladin gained nothing from it.

As for the "Everything must be damage" remark, healer have all the tools they need for most situations and doubly so in 8 man content. As I have posted in this thread previously, you only have three scenarios where you really NEED to cast Clemency; progging new fights, healers are down, or solo content.
As of now it's not all bad using Clemency at the moment but as you level you will gain access to Holy spirit, Holy Circle, Confiteor and Requiescat, which if you mp is below 8k mp, you will not gain the buff or the subsequent insta-cast buff (which might have been the issue in a minor oversight as opposed to a bug Shogun posted in his thoughts). And with access to these new skills, you will ideally spend on dps rather than healing. Holy Circle and Confiteor feel a lot better to use than Clemency.

It is also worth noting in regards your remark, that in Extremes, Savage and Ultimate, tank damage is factored into the encounter towards the overall dps check before enrage. So if a tank does not carry his burden of damage if falls to the rest of the party members to make up the missing damage which is not fair on everyone else. This can influence attitudes of some tanks to push for more damage and in casual content sure people might think it's being try hard but really it's more tanks just pulling their weight. More to the point, if a tank does try to do more damage then all the more to them, it just means they want to play better and who is anyone to criticise someone for that.

[eagledorf]

Clemency is basically only useful if the healer dies. In those situations, it's incredibly powerful, but otherwise it's a useless skill. Since healer DPS has been nerfed into the ground you're always better off using your MP to DPS.

It's unfortunate in a sense because PLD effectively is the only job that won't self-heal at all playing optimally, but on the other hand it's also the only job that can spam self-heals.

[MerlinCross]

snip

Dude, the community would shoot themselves in the foot, play one handed, and kick a puppy with the remaining leg if the devs let you show video proof of doing so for a 20% damage buff. It's why WAR was a shoe in for like base game and 2 expansions. Did the other tanks have things? Yes they did but why take them, go WAR and clear faster. Let's not forget WHM being bottom tier due to not having as much damage amp/time as the others. At the rate it's going, NIN is going to be on the block because it doesn't let you clear fast enough even with Trick Attack. Because why play a class you actually might like when it doesn't have the DEEPS.

A tank trying to do more damage is good. A tank shouldn't be expected to put out DPS levels of damage nor should we and along with every choice/play revolving around the idea of "How do I get more damage" shouldn't be the bloody norm. Not "How can I blunt this attack" or "How can I help a teammate" but how can I do more damage. I have criticized people for that back in Heavensward with STR accessories, and I will continue doing so for as long as Damage>everything else exists.

You pointed out 3 scenarios. Here's some more; is shield lob actually worth the tiny damage it does because you don't have Holy Spirit where you are? Is the Healer Panicking? Is the Healer busy? Do you have new people to a fight that actually don't know what they are doing? Is lag an issue? I was just in Vault and Alexander trying to figure out what times I could use it to help. Old content sure but I'm still seemingly bad for daring to use an ability the devs gave me.

Now as for Divine Veil, no I actually didn't know that but did notice it when trying to do some solo stuff with it in the past hour or two after realizing I had it. That is pretty bad.

[Shougun]

which if you mp is below 8k mp, you will not gain the buff or the subsequent insta-cast buff (which might have been the issue in a minor oversight as opposed to a bug Shougun posted in his thoughts).

LOL. That's funny. I never noticed it in normal content because I follow my rotation strictly then, but when I was goofing off solo on old primals and healing myself as needed then of course I didn't - so then I didn't get the instant cast buff I guess. Makes sense.

Personally I'd like for it to always give fast cast, even if less mp... so maybe I can coax SE to consider that but thank you :P. I never really paid much mind to that small detail because I used the spell in normal content as it was intended from the beginning and wouldn't have known it doesn't work as expected until doing something non-standard.

[Xynthion]

Clemency is basically only useful if the healer dies. In those situations, it's incredibly powerful, but otherwise it's a useless skill. Since healer DPS has been nerfed into the ground you're always better off using your MP to DPS.

It's unfortunate in a sense because PLD effectively is the only job that won't self-heal at all playing optimally, but on the other hand it's also the only job that can spam self-heals.

Was doing Malikah Well the other day and the healer died at the last boss with around 60% of the boss's HP left. The DPS so far had seemed competent at dodging mechanics so I figured "What the hell, let's try this." I carried the whole rest of the run using Clemency (prioritizing healing them first after AOE since that would partially heal me too) and gave up DPS to do Fast Blade --> Riot Blade only to make sure I was maximizing my mana in case of emergencies. We proceeded to kill the boss without any close calls and it felt ridiculously overpowered. No other tank could have done that.

Granted, this was a leveling dungeon. In Savage raiding I feel like the passive heals of other tanks would be far more helpful.

[Renato]

I'm leveling up PLD right now but I don't see how Clemecy being added is a good thing. Not in a game where Deeps is the most important thing. Having to cast that means you're bad or the healer is bad right?

I don't understand why using Clemency is a bad thing. There have been situations where it's saved my ass and the party numerous times, especially during the new raids. Like when a large majority of the party has been wiped. I can literally let the healer know to concentrate on rezzing, use cooldowns and just heal myself until we're back on track (in some cases) Requiescat's no cast bar trait really helps with this as well.

And sure, most healers won't have an issue rezzing but it definitely makes it less stressful in my opinion.