Thoughts on PLD changes

[Ariki]

Not sure why need to debate on pld healing ppl or dps ppl.

If you met one pld that spam Clemency and u dont like it then dont party that pld... Simple. Lol

Im sure that there are pld that use it sparsely and keep thing balance.

Not like every bad pld will come here and read the forum for correction. Lol

[TheForce]

You know what else deals no damage? Dead mobs.

Know what wastes your mitigation? Stunning.

Know what you could just... dodge, instead? Large orange AoEs.

Know what wastes a Holy spam? Stunning.

Know what wastes your healer's oGCD output? Sacrificing your damage, which would affect all mobs, to deny the damage of one inconsequential mob.

Know what ensures you die in a wall to wall pull when your CDs run out and you're not overgeared? Having subpar party damage, of which yours is a very significant part.

Okay, I get it, doing damage is cool, but enough already. You're taking this way too far. Stop trying to treat dungeon mobs like Innocence Ex. A Tank choosing to do some CC to make the group more comfortable should be encouraged, I know that as a melee dps, I totally appreciate not needing to run away every 6 seconds to dodge an aoe.

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

[MagiusNecros]

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

Probably better off ignoring it while it goes on PMSing about MAH DEEPS

[Shurrikhan]

Okay, I get it, doing damage is cool, but enough already. You're taking this way too far. Stop trying to treat dungeon mobs like Innocence Ex. A Tank choosing to do some CC to make the group more comfortable should be encouraged, I know that as a melee dps, I totally appreciate not needing to run away every 6 seconds to dodge an aoe.

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

Option 1: Hit button A, then button B. Repeat. You do something of worth.
Option 2: Tab through all available enemies hitting button C, swapping back and forth as they make "large orange AoEs" rather than dodging, to Shield Bash them. You do nothing of worth.

The issue isn't "optimizing" in the way you're suggesting when the difference is between a simpler procedure that has very significant value and a more complex procedure that has virtually no value. In the later case, if with an WHM, you might as well just stand there, and when stunning dodgeable AoEs you're actually costing yourself mitigation.

This is me suggesting not to shoot yourself just because it's an option available to you: "Look at what my toolkit can do! Aren't I quirky and innovative?"

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

You were given a situational skill. It still has some situations of potential use. I just hate how few and far between they've come, given that a skill-space is still being used on it.

And, you make a good point. Tornado Kick's another obvious example, but even it had real use until Riddle of Wind was stripped away from the job with ShB and Perfect Balance's cooldown was doubled. Were I less tired, I could probably think of a... couple more, but that's it.

[MerlinCross]

Option 1: Hit button A, then button B. Repeat. You do something of worth.
Option 2: Tab through all available enemies hitting button C, swapping back and forth as they make "large orange AoEs" rather than dodging, to Shield Bash them. You do nothing of worth.

The issue isn't "optimizing" in the way you're suggesting when the difference is between a simpler procedure that has very significant value and a more complex procedure that has virtually no value. In the later case, if with an WHM, you might as well just stand there, and when stunning dodgeable AoEs you're actually costing yourself mitigation.

This is me suggesting not to shoot yourself just because it's an option available to you: "Look at what my toolkit can do! Aren't I quirky and innovative?"

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

[Kolsykol]

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

You're meant to use them if it's actually useful.
Benediction exists but that doesn't mean that it should just be used for the sake of using it.

Should you use your defensive CD's against a single mob or use it for the next group?
It's a tool right? So '' hurr durr just use it ''?
Or maybe it's not that simple and just because you have a tool and you're using it doesn't mean that you're actually being useful or performing better.
Just because you have a hammer and you're hitting something with it doesn't mean that you're using it in a good way.

Again, Clemency for example...
If a healer is throwing Tetragrammaton and Afflatus Solace on you while you have a regen and you're standing in Asyulm you're not helping and you're not making good use of Clemency by spamming it.
It's one thing if the healer is clearly having problems and you do it or if the healer is dead, it's an entirely different thing doing it when the healer is spamming Holy and is keeping you alive without having to stop casting Holy just to keep you alive.
Tetragrammaton and Afflatus Solace is a GCD, why should both of you stop dps:ing just to both throw out more heals than necessary?
Especially when you as a PLD have better AoE damage and it's the healers job and responsibility to heal.

This entire narrative and idea that '' we have a tool so we should use it '' is incredibly simple-minded tbh and it's not how things work in practice at all.
Even for dps it's not that simple.
People need to ask themselves if what they're doing is actually helping or not and to think beyond just what you yourself are doing and think of it in the grander scheme of things and in the context of an entire group doing things together.

I know that I have an aggressive tone right now but I am just a bit tired of people trying to rationalize why they're doing random things just for the sake of doing them.

Edit: In regards to the whole stunning thing I think that it really depends a lot.
Do you have melee in your group? Is it just one mob that does it and there's a longer cd inbetween before it does it again?
If there's a lot of AoE happening then I don't see how stunning one of them is going to do much if anything, it's better to just kill them asap.
If it's one of those in the last packs in Holminster Switch tho then it's whatever.

I think that it's a matter of context like with everything else.
But I'd like to remind people that tanks have an ogcd stun, so I dunno why people are talking about Shield Bash.
You can continue to AoE and stun at the same time.
Even as someone who hates Clemency spamming PLD's I don't think that's an issue.

[Booden]

Edit: In regards to the whole stunning thing I think that it really depends a lot.
Do you have melee in your group? Is it just one mob that does it and there's a longer cd inbetween before it does it again?
If there's a lot of AoE happening then I don't see how stunning one of them is going to do much if anything, it's better to just kill them asap.
If it's one of those in the last packs in Holminster Switch tho then it's whatever.

I've done all the new dungeons from both pld and sam pov, can't say where as a melee dps I'd actually like the tank to stun monsters instead of dpsing. Most of the time you can run around the monsters and continue aoeing without getting hit by any orange aoe, and if you do you can just pop Bloodbath and heal yourself to full in like two/three gcds, or second wind if you really need it.

Not sure why Shield Bash is still in the game, it's pretty useless now considering Low Blow is a 5s stun and is ogcd. Melees also have Leg Sweep if they really need to interrupt a trash mob, and it's yet another ogcd stun, so even in the unlikely case that you'd need 3 interrupts, the tank can use interject and low blow, while a melee dps can use leg sweep, and since everything is ogcd you can keep your aoe rotation going and kill the mobs fast.

Honestly I'd rather you be casting clemency than wasting a gcd on shield bash, it's that bad.

[MerlinCross]

Snip

So your argument is "Use them when they are useful".

Okay. When are they useful? Shurrikhan for example argued that even dodging out of AoEs is better than giving up a GCD. And even if you REALLY absolutely need to interrupt, Interject and Low blow exist. We are given Shield Bash but also given really no reason to actively use it.

Clemency is also in the same way. How dare you not do a damaging GCD, how bad are you or the healer to the point you were forced into healing; goes the community. I'll also just throw in Divine Veil into that as well. Sure it's useful in raids but it's dead weight in solo content, a tool without a use in that instance(Why are we the only tank that doesn't get effected by our own AoE barrier?).

But both Shield Bash and Clemency are tools, you shouldn't be spamming them. I just wish the devs gave us a reason to use the former and the game and community let us use the Latter.

[CaTi]

Whilst I don’t use Clemency terribly often myself (and pretty much only in DF dungeons) it is, and will always be a niche part of PLD’s defensive skill set, the value of which varies depending on the situation at hand.

To automatically cite occasional usage of Clemency as a lack of trust in Healers or wasting other people’s time is incredibly disingenuous to say the least and quite one sided.

Perhaps the PLD is short on cooldowns for whatever reason, or perhaps it’s a pre Holy Circle duty and they feel it’s the best expenditure of MP vs single target hitting 1/10 mobs or sometimes the healer is doing the limbo game but lacks the experience/skill to properly manage this.

No doubt there are PLDs who take it too far. And the Healers getting uppity about trust issues are assuredly the minority but to those that do... if you want the tank to trust you, then trust the tank to use their entire skill set as and when they feel appropriate rather than immediately viewing it as a slight against you.

[Dixa]

Still dont understand How a sword and shield job do more damage than the 2 handed weapon jobs.

The better the class looks the more damage it does.

And I agree the paladin is a joy to play right now.