DANCER lowest dps in game? why

[khalidalawar]

why is dancer so undertuned, because it can buff others?.. black mage with 12,500 dps and dancer with 8700 dps?? really?... dont get me wrong i love playing dancer, but alot of groups dont ask for a dancer for its underwhelming dps... they dont seem to care about the buffs... why do i always end up with under tuned jobs..

A job balance is required please

[xkazh]

This is not new.

Jobs that buff other jobs have always traded off personal DPS to compensate. Ninja has lower pDPS to compensate for Trick Attack, same for Bard and Machinist pre-ShB. Dancer is exactly the same. Black Mage, on the other hand, provides so little utility so to compensate it has lots of pDPS.
There might be balancing in the future to Dancer's potency values but don't expect to be doing BLM levels of damage on a job that can buff everyone else's damage.

[Crushnight]

ok take 5% of that 12.5k dps blm and add it to the 8.7k dps dancer you get 9.325k dps (standard finish buff should always be on and its a flat 5% dmg increase) then add all the percentage from technical finish, about 1-2% per player so x5(exclude hlrs since they won't always be using damaging skills) and then add devilment another around 1% from the blm

so just with that blm alone your contribution goes from 8.7k to 9.575k(1% the low end) up to 9.7k(2% the high end)

Now add 2x 1%/2% from 6k tanks which be another 120-240 dps so 9.695k to 9.940k

Then add 2x 1%/2% from 9.5k to 11k dps which be 190-440 dps so now you would be 9.885k to 10.38k

These are low ball estimates, assumes blm is partnered with dnc, party fully lives, buffs go out for full duration, no hlr dps which in a good group will happen.

I say we are actually in a really good spot as dancers our raid contribution is high enough to be valuable but not so high machinist is threatened which only has tactician(dmg mitigation), i do not feel like we need any direct buffs yet, rng mitigation on the other hand would be nice and sabre dance ogcd when? :P

[Ayrie]

What about when a Black Mage's pDPS jumps to 14000 because that same DNC pulling... whatever... joined? That 8700 just becomes 10700... not even accounting for Technical Step - that's just Closed Position + Standard Step.

Supports always hide their true additions by padding the numbers of other people. It is why parses are unreliable, well... at the top end... because there are ways to cheat them and show numbers in "fixed" scenarios (super buffing one guy so he can get his 99.9 percentile for the "lols").

I feel my personal damage contribution as Dancer was a bit low, but our Black Mage loved having me around, and not one person from my team said: gosh, if only we had something that wasn't this crappy dancer. May change in Savage tier, but time will tell.

Welcome to the world of support Should see the damage numbers FFXI bards do...

[khalidalawar]

thank you i appreciate your take on it,, i feel a bit better now =]

[KaiSunstrider]

The math has been done on multiple other posts. Technical step = 5% for 20sec/120 secs = 0.83% raid dps increase. Average raid dps is 60k. This equates to technical finish averaging about a 500 dps increase. Avg BLM is pulling 10,700 if considering all BLMs have dancer partners then 535 dps of that belongs to the dancer. DNC buffs in total equate on average to 1000 extra dps. So that 8.7k is really 9.7k but still way behind other classes if you also factor in their raid contributions as well.

I'm sorry, but I dont see how you get that a 5% dps buff can jump a BLM up 2k dps. At best a BLM that can pull 12k unbuffed would get an extra 700 dps because of you which is basically the 500-600 above from standard and 100 dps from technical. Dnc buffs aren't adding 2k dps to a single player from a 5% buff. 2k extra dps from closed position would require the BLM to be pulling around 38,000 dps.

TLDR- Dancer's total extra party contribution is on average only 1k dps in the standard party. 1.2k dps in high end parties. With them being 1k or more behind every other job, their buffs do not make up for this.

That being said, Square will make lots of tuning changes in the first couple of weeks. I would not expect us to stay at this performance level. Both NIN and DNC are due for some buffage.

[TraeSnow]

The math has been done on multiple other posts. Technical step = 5% for 20sec/120 secs = 0.83% raid dps increase. Average raid dps is 60k. This equates to technical finish averaging about a 500 dps increase. Avg BLM is pulling 10,700 if considering all BLMs have dancer partners then 535 dps of that belongs to the dancer. DNC buffs in total equate on average to 1000 extra dps. So that 8.7k is really 9.7k but still way behind other classes if you also factor in their raid contributions as well.

I'm sorry but I dont see how you get that a 5% dps buff can jump a BLM up 2k dps. At best a BLM that can pull 12k unbuffed would get an extra 700 dps because of you which is basically the 500-600 above from standard and 100 dps from technical. Dnc buffs aren't adding 2k dps to a single player from a 5% buff.

TLDR- Dancer's total extra party contribution is on average only 1k dps in the standard party. 1.2k dps in high end parties. With them being 1k or more behind every other job, their buffs do not make up for this.

You forgot Devilment. That is also utility that boosts DPS.
So many DNCs complaining they aren't high DPS and only use Standard and Technical finish as their raid contribution. So either they are afraid to add in Devilment because it will invalidate their own points, or they aren't using it. In which case, they should be kicked from the party.

[Legion88]

You're forgetting Devilment

[KaiSunstrider]

You forgot Devilment. That is also utility that boosts DPS.
So many DNCs complaining they aren't high DPS and only use Standard and Technical finish as their raid contribution. So either they are afraid to add in Devilment because it will invalidate their own points, or they aren't using it. In which case, they should be kicked from the party.

You are right that my 1k dps doesn't include devilment but that is a very difficult buff to napkin math calculate the avg contribution of since its not a flat increase but a chance to do extra damage which obviously has diminishing returns based on your partners gear and skill.

Devilment is already accounted for in your personal dps numbers. It has the same uptime as technical finish with is around 16.6667% so for arugment sake lets say devilment has equal dps contributions to your partner as technical step which is basically 1% extra damage. So instead of giving the BLM 5% you are now giving him 6% not including technical step (that was calculated from party dps). BLM's portion of dps that belongs to the DNC is now 642 dps instead of 535. So an extra 100 dps. This would bring DNC raid contribution to an average of 1.1k dps vs the original 1k. This puts AVG DNC total dps at 9300 dps based on 75th percentile parses which still leaves it in the bottom 3 dps.

All I'm getting at is that the disparity between DNC, BRD and MCH is much higher than what the buffs account for. There is currently a 2k dps gap between MCH and DNC. No matter how you swing it, Devilment will not end up being an extra 1k dps to close the gap between them. I'm playing DNC because I enjoy the style of play and will continue to do so. But with current tuning, the reason why dancers are liked is because they help BLMs and SAMS get high parses, not because their total contribution to raid dps is more than another ranged dps.

If you only care about damage and can't wait for tuning passes, you should play MCH. Otherwise, DNC is a very satisfying and fun class. If people won't take you as a dancer because of week 2 tuning, then you need to find new people because while DNC is under-tuned, it is no where near nonviable considering all of the logs are from successful kills in which there are more DNC parses than any other class.

My post isn't to complain about DNC but to bring awareness to realistic current state of things rather than have it buried under "I mean your a buff class, you probably add like 4k dps to raid from it. Stop complaining". We need some love and I hope we get it considering its my Main Job and I'm here to stay.

[TraeSnow]

Snip

I feel the issue with DNC or any utility job for that matter, is not knowing how SE judges what a job's DPS should be.
I'm pretty sure they are going back to the "hard jobs are more rewarding" and that has always been the justification of SMN having utility and also being high DPS. Currently DNC is probably the easiest job in the game by far, so if they are rewarding harder jobs with more DPS, then that calculates into DNC's pDPS.
Of the 3 Ranged Physical Jobs, MCH should be the highest, then Bard, then DNC. Now for how much disparity should be between each, I can't say. There are just too many variables and assumptions.
MCH only gets tacticians.
Bard gets Battle voice, Nature's Minne, Troubadour, and Warden's Paean.
Dancer gets Devilment, Standard Step, Technical Step, Shield Samba, and Curing Waltz.
While Bard is close to DNC in terms of amount of utility skills, they do only get one DPS increase skill vs DNC's three.
While Shield Samba, and Curing Waltz do not buff DPS, they are still utility. You may never use them, but that doesn't change the fact they exist and are utility. Same situation with SMN, SMN is punished for having access to Raise. Even if they never use it during a fight, it exists, they still have access to it, and thus their DPS must pay the price.

Then you have to factor in mobility. Does having more mobility take away from utility?
All ranged physical jobs can attack while moving. So that is a moot point.
DNC has three dashes, MCH has no mobility skills at all, and Bard get the backflip.
Of the three DNC is the most spammable and by far the most flexible and most heavily used.

I'm not validating DNC having low dps, but I'm also not invalidating it. I'm more of just trying to point out that there are a lot of variables that come into play when discerning a job's DPS and we do not know all those variables other than the basic "Utility."